Grades, information-gathering, and leading near your limit as a short/tall/non-"average" climber

I would be surprised if there is a correlation between height and climbing ability on average. Sure for some climbs being taller helps. For some climbs being shorter helps. For some climbs thicker fingers/fists helps. For some climbs thinner fingers/first helps. But nature created all different kinds of rocks, without regard to the type of human that would climb it. I would think that for most climbs height doesn't matter. e.g. A shorter person may use holds that a taller person doesn't.

Other sports aren't like this. For basket ball or volley ball and many positions in football above average height is a distinct advantage. Not so for soccer. Or board sports. Or climbing on most climbs.

Nick Drake wrote: 

He was soloing. You are not. Stop dodging what you're not comfortable with or you're never going to become a better climber. 

Right now I'm working on a route that has an awkward and powerful move (think moonboard) to a two finger pocket that's completely blind with the bolt below your feet. I tried to figure out ways around this using goofy small crimps and other BS for a bit, I can force it but get pumped to hell and can't finish the route that ticky tacky way. I considered giving up on the whole damn thing because honestly I've put waaaaay more tries into it than I *think* I should be for the grade.
I stuck with it though and just kept working that move and trying to make it feel less uncomfortable in my head. Last night I stuck it and then stuck it again straight from the ground.

I whipped on that move that was far out of my comfort zone, far from my natural style, over 45 times. I could have just made excuses, picked another project, or tried to work goofy awkward alternative beta to death. Instead I just stuck with it, sucked up my pride and took those 45 falls I needed to learn the lesson from the move. THAT is what Neely's quote is telling you to do, fight what you think is a weakness. When was the last time you gave anywhere near that number of attempts at something?

Also relevant excerpt from Bechtel's recent email:

"When encountering your weaknesses, you have four choices:

1. You can deny them (which is what most people do).
2. You can accept them and work at them in order to try to convert them to strengths (which might or might not work depending on your ability to change).
3. You can accept your weaknesses and find ways around them.
4. Or, you can change what you are going after. " - Ray Dalio

Nick,

I am not in denial about my weaknesses. In the past, I would say that I was in some denial about my capability and weaknesses, in the respect that I continued to throw myself at things which were too difficult for me, repeatedly. This led to injury multiple times with long layoffs. I am much more cautious now. I'd rather be stuck at my current level, and still climbing, then injured and not climbing anymore. Maybe I'll make progress slowly - I hope so. But I'm not going to keep throwing myself at stuff the way I have in the past.

I guess you could say I took Dalio's option #4. After repeated injury, I decided that for me, it's enough to just be climbing something, rather than trying too hard to move up the grades, and wind up not climbing at all.

It may be that your experience is different - it would seem so. I'm not going to make an assumption based on your one post. It's not helpful to yourself or anyone else to make judgments about people that you don't know. Both you and John do not know me, my background, or what I've done to get as far as I have in climbing, or anything else (unless you're my bf posting under an alias). The number of judgments that are being made in this thread about total strangers is remarkable. Maybe there's some projection going on. If that's the case, feel free to work on your own limitations and weaknesses. Feel free to make suggestions to others about your own experience and how you've handled problems. But you know what they say about making assumptions, right?  Assumptions like this:

He was soloing. You are not. Stop dodging what you're not comfortable with or you're never going to become a better climber.

I've done a huge amount of work to do things which I'm not comfortable with, within the realm of my physical limitations - a fact that you don't know, but you still feel free to make a judgement like this, which seems to be aimed as a put-down. In fact, I do climb 30-100 foot runouts. They are usually easy (slab), but for me, they are a challenge. It's not soloing, but I don't treat this in a cavalier way and think "whatever, I'm not soloing so it doesn't matter if I fall." I also don't want to make a mistake when I'm 10-20 feet off the ground and haven't place pro yet.

Anyway, this is not a thread about me or my climbing skills, weaknesses, etc, and I didn't want to derail the thread. I wanted to point out that even a relatively tall person sometimes can be faced with tough moves that they want to avoid. It happens to us all. I was surprised when I read that Honnold had that experience, since I think of him as having superhuman climbing skills and a total lack of fear. Reading it was encouraging to me ("hey that happens to him too!"). I hope someone enjoyed reading the anecdote. Otherwise, feel free to ignore it.

Lena chita wrote:

For 99.9% of routes/situations that people in this thread are attempting, decking and injury are not a concern when trying a dynamic move. None of us are Alex, and we aren’t soloing. 

When I choose to do some ridiculous static move on small holds, instead of a much-easier dyno, it is usually because I’m scared, true. But it is not because I have a rational reason to be scared. 

Lena,

TBH I have yet to climb something outdoors which requires a dyno (or even where it would be useful, so far as I know). I've only done dynos indoors, where it's really safe. So that's for sure. And I'm not afraid at all of doing that, although it rarely happens that I find myself on a route that requires it.

Is there anyone reading this thread who could suggest an outdoor climb somewhere in NH where there's a safe dyno for a 5.8 max climber? I'd be very interested to take a look at it, at least   

dragons wrote:

Lena,

TBH I have yet to climb something outdoors which requires a dyno (or even where it would be useful, so far as I know). I've only done dynos indoors, where it's really safe. So that's for sure. And I'm not afraid at all of doing that, although it rarely happens that I find myself on a route that requires it.

Is there anyone reading this thread who could suggest an outdoor climb somewhere in NH where there's a safe dyno for a 5.8 max climber? I'd be very interested to take a look at it, at least   

Dragon, I’m not even talking about an outright all-points-off dyno. I’m talking about any dynamic move —  a deadpoint, any move that has a momentum to it. 

This new round of conversation started when Etha  reported doing more dynamic moves, and starting to be a little more comfortable with it, and mentally willing to try and do it repeatedly. I don’t think she was talking about all-points-off dynos, either. 

In this context, your objection that the context was missing, and quoting Alex Honnold just struck me as not-applicable.  
We are talking more about timing/coordination of a safe dynamic (but not all-points-off) move, the risk in this case is minimal, but it is hard to override the need to always be in control and be able to reverse every move from any midway point. Harder for some people than others. (Talking about myself here) 

To me that was the main take-home of Etha’s recent post: we form negative mental associations with dynamic moves, based on previous failures and fears, and that makes it harder for us to practice them, even though practicing them repeatedly may be the single most important thing for us on the path to improvement. 

It is a general thing that applies to all of us, regardless of height, age, gender, etc. we all have different things that we are not good at, and working on those weaknesses is the most efficient path to improve, but we all like to feel good about ourselves, and repeatedly failing doesn’t feel good, so we would rather do things that we are good at.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with climbing for enjoyment, not pushing yourself into anything scary, difficult, or having the slightest risk of injury, and sticking to things you know you can do. But that is not where this thread started... 

dragons wrote: I was surprised when I read that Honnold had that experience, since I think of him as having superhuman climbing skills and a total lack of fear. Reading it was encouraging to me ("hey that happens to him too!"). I hope someone enjoyed reading the anecdote. Otherwise, feel free to ignore it.

FWIW, I watched Alex fall off a rather straightforward boulder problem at a local gym recently. He dusted himself off and got right back on it. I know what you mean, though, it's nice to know he's human just like the rest of us. 

Lena chita wrote:

Dragon, I’m not even talking about an outright all-points-off dyno. I’m talking about any dynamic move —  a deadpoint, any move that has a momentum to it. '

Yes.

This new round of conversation started when Etha  reported doing more dynamic moves, and starting to be a little more comfortable with it, and mentally willing to try and do it repeatedly. I don’t think she was talking about all-points-off dynos, either. 

Yes.

In this context, your objection that the context was missing, and quoting Alex Honnold just struck me as not-applicable.  

And yes.  Dragons,  apparently I'm not the only one with a "reading comprehension" problem (sic).  What do you want us to think when you continually post irrelevant counter-examples?    

We are talking more about timing/coordination of a safe dynamic (but not all-points-off) move, the risk in this case is minimal, but it is hard to override the need to always be in control and be able to reverse every move from any midway point. Harder for some people than others. (Talking about myself here) 

To me that was the main take-home of Etha’s recent post: we form negative mental associations with dynamic moves, based on previous failures and fears, and that makes it harder for us to practice them, even though practicing them repeatedly may be the single most important thing for us on the path to improvement. 

I forgot to say earlier, Big Kudos to Etha!

It is a general thing that applies to all of us, regardless of height, age, gender, etc. we all have different things that we are not good at, and working on those weaknesses is the most efficient path to improve, but we all like to feel good about ourselves, and repeatedly failing doesn’t feel good, so we would rather do things that we are good at.
Finally, there is nothing wrong with climbing for enjoyment, not pushing yourself into anything scary, difficult, or having the slightest risk of injury, and sticking to things you know you can do. But that is not where this thread started... 

Exactly.

Sorry if my post was not welcome here. I will duly shut up now.

dragons wrote: 
In the past, I would say that I was in some denial about my capability and weaknesses, in the respect that I continued to throw myself at things which were too difficult for me, repeatedly. This led to injury multiple times with long layoffs. I am much more cautious now. I'd rather be stuck at my current level, and still climbing, then injured and not climbing anymore. 

It may be that your experience is different - it would seem so. I'm not going to make an assumption based on your one post. It's not helpful to yourself or anyone else to make judgments about people that you don't know. Both you and John do not know me, my background, or what I've done to get as far as I have in climbing, or anything else (unless you're my bf posting under an alias). The number of judgments that are being made in this thread about total strangers is remarkable. Maybe there's some projection going on. If that's the case, feel free to work on your own limitations and weaknesses. Feel free to make suggestions to others about your own experience and how you've handled problems. But you know what they say about making assumptions, right?  Assumptions like this:

I've done a huge amount of work to do things which I'm not comfortable with, within the realm of my physical limitations - a fact that you don't know, but you still feel free to make a judgement like this, which seems to be aimed as a put-down. In fact, I do climb 30-100 foot runouts. They are usually easy (slab), but for me, they are a challenge. It's not soloing, but I don't treat this in a cavalier way and think "whatever, I'm not soloing so it doesn't matter if I fall." I also don't want to make a mistake when I'm 10-20 feet off the ground and haven't place pro yet.

Anyway, this is not a thread about me or my climbing skills, weaknesses, etc, and I didn't want to derail the thread. I wanted to point out that even a relatively tall person sometimes can be faced with tough moves that they want to avoid. It happens to us all. I was surprised when I read that Honnold had that experience, since I think of him as having superhuman climbing skills and a total lack of fear. Reading it was encouraging to me ("hey that happens to him too!"). I hope someone enjoyed reading the anecdote. Otherwise, feel free to ignore it.

Well I don't know your physical limitations, but I do know what I see all over in climbing and life. The huge majority of people out there end up using a psychical injury/condition as an excuse to not perform their best instead of facing it head on and dealing with it. Saying that you injured yourself when trying things which were difficult for you, if you didn't have a background of resistance training I would highly encourage you to look into it. For any of us past the mid 30s it's perhaps the best injury prevention you could practice. 

You're correct on assumptions, so instead of continuing to tell you what to do I'll give you a laundry list of where I'm coming from, both when I came into climbing in 2014 (at age 33, so not a spring chicken) with a host of prior injuries and things during climbing:

• Left shoulder, I posted up earlier to Etha. In 2009 I dislocated my left shoulder up and backward, it was out of socket for 3 hours and due to some insurance issues I never properly went through PT. I had poor external rotation and it was very unstable. I had over a half dozen subluxations of that shoulder early in climbing. It HURT all of the time, I had terrible range of motion, I was afraid to even jump up and grab a pull up bar. It was my biggest limitation in progressing. Honestly my shoulder popped out on 5.8 routes in the gym, it was that bad. 
• Ankles. Owning to 25 years of skateboarding injuries both of my ankles sound lice rice crispies at some portion of their ROM. My right was quite weak and I had horrible dorsiflexion, I couldn't even get my right knee even with the toe on that foot. 
• Hip. My left hip had very poor turnout, I couldn't open that leg more than about 30 degrees to the side. Another skateboarding injury.
• Fingers. I have been through a half dozen grade 1-2 pulley strains from 2016-2018 
• Head game. In 2015 I took a very large fall in the middle of a long and remote alpine route. I landed on slab from steep ground (basically decked) and flipped backwards violently suffering a concussion and breaking my helmet (among other injuries). This was just before our bivy on the first day, we still completed the next 1,500 feet of climbing the next day.
  
  

For the left shoulder I've been doing work 2-3 times a week, around 10-15 minutes total for 4 years straight. It is now very stable, pain free and with great range of motion. I'm working on stability hanging from one arm on a jug. It took three PTs and finally a movement therapist to iron out all the issues.

I can easily pistol squat on either leg, same amount of frequency as the shoulder, but only took 2 years.

Hip is still work in progress, but it's improved dramatically. Less focus on this time wise.

Fingers have been injury free all year. I followed Esther Smith's rehab protocol for each injury, 2-4 months for each one to heal fully. Doing rehab hangs every 4 days during that time.

Head game. Good god that's been tough, for a year it came and went. I went from being a rather bold leader to backing off leads well below my limit one day and cruising a new grade the next. Rock Warriors way helped a lot, I've taken thousands of falls in the last 4 years. I would actually go into the gym early on and spend entire nights falling on every bolt. Every single day that I climb sport I warm up taking lead falls to this day. I can take very large falls on sport projects I know while very relaxed, but on new terrain anxiety still creeps in. If I've evaluated a route as safe from the ground I'll frequently just fall the second I feel doubt/fear/hesitation creep in, this limits my onsight grade a bit, but it seems to be helping. I'm not where I want to be yet, but I'm worlds better off than I was three years ago.

Hopefully those things are taken the right way, this is meant to inspire you to find solutions to what you've gone through. First step is to convince yourself that you can and WILL be stronger and more resilient than you were in the past.  Everyone can progress in climbing, but being open and honest with yourself is the hardest hurdle to jump through. 

dragons wrote:

Lena,

TBH I have yet to climb something outdoors which requires a dyno (or even where it would be useful, so far as I know). I've only done dynos indoors, where it's really safe. So that's for sure. And I'm not afraid at all of doing that, although it rarely happens that I find myself on a route that requires it.

Is there anyone reading this thread who could suggest an outdoor climb somewhere in NH where there's a safe dyno for a 5.8 max climber? I'd be very interested to take a look at it, at least   

It's just outside the grade range you're looking for, but maybe one to save for the future: at 5'1.5''/-4 ape, I got to do a pretty big (and fun!) deadpoint to the dish after the bolt on Chicken Delight at Cathedral. I fell a bunch and will never forget the "wait, really?!" surprise I felt when I finally got the hold. I was following, but with the bolt right there it should be a safe move to work on lead, too.

Lena chita wrote: We are talking more about timing/coordination of a safe dynamic (but not all-points-off) move, the risk in this case is minimal, but it is hard to override the need to always be in control and be able to reverse every move from any midway point. Harder for some people than others. (Talking about myself here) 

Hahaha, so real! It's nice to know that other people have had to work on this too.

Dynamic movement isn't always irreversible. Some of the times I've most scared my wife when she has been on belay is when I've gone for a big deadpoint, missed it, and caught myself back on the lower hold. It's a great way to confuse your belayer who doesn't know whether they should brace for a fall or not. Note: this probably isn't good for your arms and shoulders.

dragons wrote: Sorry if my post was not welcome here. I will duly shut up now.

Dragons, we don't want you to shut up.   We want you to learn and enjoy climbing more.

The reason so many people climb is the personal satisfaction they get from doing something they weren't sure they could do.   There's a lot of factors involved -- mental, physical, technical & spiritual -- but if you boil it all down, the larger the challenge the greater the satisfaction when you do it.   It doesn't matter if you solo El Cap, onsight a Grade IV in the Valley, redpoint at your highest grade, or finally stick that boulder problem: the satisfaction is intense, enduring and addictive.   It's your reward for all the training, dieting, alpine starts, traveling, money for gear, etc. that you've invested.

The corollary is that improving your climbing -- harder, longer, faster -- increases that satisfaction.   When (if) you do your first 5.10, you'll look back and think, "Gee, I can't believe I was so happy with that 5.7 I did two years ago, because right now it feels so much better!"    This is what makes climbing so addictive.  You know there's no limit to the rewards.

And it must be said, acknowledged and felt, that failing is part of it, too.   Falling off the crux, retreating in the rain, chickening out, missing the dyno... and getting injured, too.

So keep the above in mind and ask yourself why you're here.  Here on Mountain Project Forums.    I would say that most of us are here to learn, share what they know, and experience a sense of community.   And just as in climbing, you will sometimes fail: you'll be wrong about something and be publicly corrected.   It's like falling and hanging on the rope at a crowded crag; everyone can see you failed.

I, personally, have learned a huge amount on MP and on rec.climbing, which preceded it.  Many things I learned have improved my climbing.  I have also shared much of what I've learned over 40 years of climbing.  And I have been corrected, humiliated, moderated, slapped-down, ganged-up-on and completely wrong, too.   So just tell your belayer you're pulling up, get back up to the crux and try it again.  But this time with more knowledge than you had before, and with some different beta.

John Byrnes wrote:

Dragons, we don't want you to shut up.   We want you to learn and enjoy climbing more.

The reason so many people climb is the personal satisfaction they get from doing something they weren't sure they could do.   There's a lot of factors involved -- mental, physical, technical & spiritual -- but if you boil it all down, the larger the challenge the greater the satisfaction when you do it.   It doesn't matter if you solo El Cap, onsight a Grade IV in the Valley, redpoint at your highest grade, or finally stick that boulder problem: the satisfaction is intense, enduring and addictive.   It's your reward for all the training, dieting, alpine starts, traveling, money for gear, etc. that you've invested.

The corollary is that improving your climbing -- harder, longer, faster -- increases that satisfaction.   When (if) you do your first 5.10, you'll look back and think, "Gee, I can't believe I was so happy with that 5.7 I did two years ago, because right now it feels so much better!"    This is what makes climbing so addictive.  You know there's no limit to the rewards.

And it must be said, acknowledged and felt, that failing is part of it, too.   Falling off the crux, retreating in the rain, chickening out, missing the dyno... and getting injured, too.

So keep the above in mind and ask yourself why you're here.  Here on Mountain Project Forums.    I would say that most of us are here to learn, share what they know, and experience a sense of community.   And just as in climbing, you will sometimes fail: you'll be wrong about something and be publicly corrected.   It's like falling and hanging on the rope at a crowded crag; everyone can see you failed.

I, personally, have learned a huge amount on MP and on rec.climbing, which preceded it.  Many things I learned have improved my climbing.  I have also shared much of what I've learned over 40 years of climbing.  And I have been corrected, humiliated, moderated, slapped-down, ganged-up-on and completely wrong, too.   So just tell your belayer you're pulling up, get back up to the crux and try it again.  But this time with more knowledge than you had before, and with some different beta.

Naw, I'm just here cuz it's still too stinking hot in southern Idaho and I'm wasting time instead of unpacking the Honda. From Monday return. Or doing anything else productive, besides eating and getting fatter. Sheesh.

Waiting on pics from this last trip to COR for a really fun reply to this thread!

As to "limits" and head game? That's sometimes a tough call. It is a pretty important skill, though, to know when you're faking yourself out, and when you are making a prudent decision. Each of us has to weigh the package we bring to the route, that day, even that moment. Our lives and our partners lives depend on those decisions. I got to climb in Maple canyon recently, with a huge abundance of SAFE, easy, well bolted climbs. I could easily have led several per day.....but didn't. Stayed on top rope. I also had a sprained ankle, and a drive back to SLC to make. I even backed off a top rope climb, because I didn't like where the fall would have gone. Part of the package at the time. Sigh.

But? Sometimes the crux is the drive home. Or just putting my pants on and showing up at all.

Best, Helen

OK so this post isn't about my height, (I'm 5'8") but about adapting my climbing to my current circumstances. You see I have a rather unique problem: I shattered my left hip and screwed up my left knee in a cycling accident last September and while the hip made a good recovery, sadly the knee has not. I am only able to achieve about a 110-degree bend in it and so took up climbing again as a way of helping my rehabilitation. It's tough, because I have to find ways of placing my right foot on holds most climbers would use their left foot on and this can often make the moves pretty impossible. However, it hasn't stopped me and I'm slowly working my way back up through the climbing grades and even though I'm a long way from my previous best (UK E6 6b or 5.12a) it's fun solving the puzzles climbing with my disability gives me. And the movement is improving, albeit very slowly. What I'm trying to say is, you can adapt. :) 

Derek Boocock wrote: OK so this post isn't about my height, (I'm 5'8") but about adapting my climbing to my current circumstances. You see I have a rather unique problem: I shattered my left hip and screwed up my left knee in a cycling accident last September and while the hip made a good recovery, sadly the knee has not. I am only able to achieve about a 110-degree bend in it and so took up climbing again as a way of helping my rehabilitation. It's tough, because I have to find ways of placing my right foot on holds most climbers would use their left foot on and this can often make the moves pretty impossible. However, it hasn't stopped me and I'm slowly working my way back up through the climbing grades and even though I'm a long way from my previous best (UK E6 6b or 5.12a) it's fun solving the puzzles climbing with my disability gives me. And the movement is improving, albeit very slowly. What I'm trying to say is, you can adapt. :) 

Hey, you should join dragons, John and I (and others) over on the geezer/ette thread, if you wanna compare basheduppedness! Currently, Dwain wins, by a longshot.

Don't give up on the knee! In 2016, that's about what my left was doing also, not even 90 degrees. The right, winter before last, I lurched like Frankenstein first thing in the morning. They buckle, now and then, and locked once while scrambling up on our approach "trail".

Yet? This season? I can now squat down, almost butt to the ground. I can get my legs up to a (lowish) high step, and, only a few times, but still, and, I have been able to rock my weight up onto that foot and stand up, hands just for balance. I usually have to push, pull, or both, with hands to get up on a foot.

All my climbing so far has involved needing three good limbs to make progress. I've gotten the strength to just haul my ass up enough to scrabble feet up, with bomber hands (half pullups), and now, I'm close to having legs that do more also. Yay.

PT, stuff like that, early on, but mostly? Simply climbing. And pushing, every time the opportunity comes up, especially in the gym, staying active otherwise, and losing weight while gaining strength. Climbing also helps hugely with everyday balance and movement. Hands and feet that are precise are great in day to day life!

It truly is day to day, even move to move, but that is indeed a great deal of the fun of the thing, even as it's also the largest frustration!

Best, Helen

Cycling is dangerous (I raced for over a decade), far more than climbing!    I had knee surgery last year.  It's fully recovered now and I have full ROM.

Here's a photo for L Kap from the CoR trip.  Size DOES matter.

Derek Boocock wrote: OK so this post isn't about my height, (I'm 5'8") but about adapting my climbing to my current circumstances. You see I have a rather unique problem: I shattered my left hip and screwed up my left knee in a cycling accident last September and while the hip made a good recovery, sadly the knee has not. I am only able to achieve about a 110-degree bend in it and so took up climbing again as a way of helping my rehabilitation. It's tough, because I have to find ways of placing my right foot on holds most climbers would use their left foot on and this can often make the moves pretty impossible. However, it hasn't stopped me and I'm slowly working my way back up through the climbing grades and even though I'm a long way from my previous best (UK E6 6b or 5.12a) it's fun solving the puzzles climbing with my disability gives me. And the movement is improving, albeit very slowly. What I'm trying to say is, you can adapt. :) 

Hope your knee continues to improve. I know people who’ve had serious accidents, and a year is not the end of it. If you continue doing PT and rehab, you will continue getting stronger and better range of motion, even if it is never going to be 100%. 

And it is quite amazing, what human bodies can adapt to, and compensate for, when we need to. 

Another thing that has helped me with the issues I described in my OP has been recognizing how much working on the most efficient beta for a move can take a move from desperate/hard to doable/cruiser. When I get to a move that looks/feels hard, I try to think less "can I even do this hard thing??" and more "what's the easiest I can make this?" (and later "ok, now can I make it even easier?") Sometimes it still ends up being pretty hard-for-me, but keeping an open mind has helped me attach fewer negative labels/emotions to moves and be more able to explore my options, which in turn makes me less a little less worried about perceived physical limitations.

On the topic of small hands, the MP route description for The Start at Pawtuckaway reads:

The next crack right of Double chin is The Start and the start is the crux.... Perhaps 15 feet of bad-sized, jam cracks (for me it is wide fingers/thin hands, purple or green Camalot.... I find it hard to do anything but slide out....

For me, that was 15 feet of some of the most fun perfect hands I've gotten to jam in the Northeast. I thought the crux was the supposedly "better jamming" near the top!

John Byrnes wrote: 

Never mind the size. I'll buy any man who rocks those awesome tights a beer, or beverage of choice!

amarius wrote:

Never mind the size. I'll buy any man who rocks those awesome tights a beer, or beverage of choice!

Just for the record, that's not me.  

However, the wearer was putting forth the rumor that lycra was making a comeback for men.   I'll believe that when I see it.  Or rather, I'd rather not see it.   Or something like that.

Edit: I remember suggesting he check out The People of Walmart   http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/