There have been several discussions about offensive route names and other related issues that deeply concern some members of the community. I'm not here to weigh in on any side of this issue, but it goes something like this. Some members are concerned about the offensive nature of certain route names and a proposal was floated to simply change old names. This was met with both appeals to change from some members, as well as comments supportive of free speech and preservation of FA's naming rights. (Previous sentence edited to reflect input from a thoughtful commenter below.) A currently active thread is chasing this for what is now 16 pages, complete with the typical insulting epithets.
There is obviously nothing that can be done about old guidebooks that contain such names, but one poster rightly pointed out that in some cases authors have not included the more offensive names in their guides, and that just because the FA has the right to name a route whatever they want, nobody else is obligated to use or honor that name. However, the offense experienced by some is real and painful to them, whether understandable to others or not.
This is a difficult topic that can be polarizing. Strong objections were raised to the idea of certain people somehow having the power to officially rename established routes. Honor for the long tradition of naming rights is a strong value to many, and points have been raised about who would do the renaming and how far it would go once started. These are also valid concerns.
None of the discussions I have read have moved toward any kind of practical proposal for dealing with this issue. However, I think there is something that MP can do in this area, and so I submit the following proposal. This was originally posted deep in one of the other discussion threads, but I thought it might be appropriate for the community to consider in its own right, apart from the baggage of what was already a hotly debated and contentious thread. My intention is to honor the concerns of all in a practical way, as much as is possible. My Proposal
What if route names could be voted on to be hidden on MP? What I have in mind is something like this:
Click on the route name - this takes you to the route's page. In the same space where you can 'Add New Tick' or 'Add To-Do', MP could offer the option to vote to hide the name or leave it in the open. If a majority votes to hide the name, the name would then appear in the area's list of routes as Hidden By Community 5.9+, and show the same way on the route's page.
However, on the route's page there would be a link or drop down that would show the original name for anyone that wants to see it by clicking on it. If you click on a hidden name and don't think it is offensive you can vote to bring it back out in the open. Stats on the voting could be shown, which might serve to inform people on where the community's boundaries are. Voting would be anonymous, but you would only get one vote per route, which you could reverse at a later time if you want, and back again too if you change your mind.
Searching for the route name would still honor the original name even if it is a hidden name, but on the page it would still be called Hidden by Community 5.9+.
If you vote to hide the name, it hides it for you, and in the area list and on the route page it would say Hidden by You 5.9+. That way even if the community doesn't hide it, at least you don't have to look at it any more. And you could print it that way and still go have a nice climb on it without the reminder of what it was called.
Maybe a route with a highly down-voted name (>80% or something) could prompt a contact to the FA (if possible) to see if they would be willing to change it. Odds are they wouldn't, but maybe a few would.
It would only be a matter of getting it set up in MP, and voting would be restricted to registered users.
Result: Concerned people more protected. History is preserved.
It's not perfect, but I think we would be providing a welcome control within the site for some who would appreciate and welcome it.
Things I like about the idea:
Nobody could single-handedly hide a route. It would be community self-policing - not done by committee. It would show sensitivity to people with those kinds of concerns, and their vote would be honored no matter what within their own MP space. It would preserve the history for anyone desiring to look. It would honor the FA's right to name by preserving the name, although it might be hidden. It would help demonstrate community standards. It would show that we are willing to self regulate in a meaningful way to accommodate others. It has potential to influence future FAs' naming habits by making the boundaries of acceptable/unacceptable more apparent. It would allow us to actually do something practical about concerns that have weight to some people, regardless of which side you are on philosophically, and in the process possibly cut down on the interminable debates and discussions.
Since polarized debates on the issues involved here have already been pursued in other discussions, let's please limit this discussion to the proposal itself.
I can’t fathom how anyone could give a shit about route names. If you’re so impressionable that the name someone chose to give to a meaningless piece of rock offends you just don’t climb it and relish in vindication for you are above the rest.
The idea that time should be spent creating a feature for people to hide behind their insecurities is ridiculous. The world has bigger problems and so does the staff at MP I’m sure.
Tony B
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Aug 22, 2019
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Around Boulder, CO
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 24,690
Keith Wood wrote: There have been several discussions about offensive route names and other related issues that deeply concern some members of the community. I'm not here to weigh in on any side of this issue, but it goes something like this. Some members are concerned about the offensive nature of certain route names and a proposal was floated to simply change old names. This was met with both supportive comments from some members, as well as strident appeals to free speech and preservation of FA's naming rights. ((Snip)) Since polarized debates on the issues involved here have already been pursued in other discussions, let's please limit this discussion to the proposal itself.
Uhhhmmm, You know what a push-poll is, right? Well, let's see.
1) "I'm not here to weigh in on any side of this issue,"
then, (wait for it...)
2) "This was met with both supportive comments from some members, as well as strident appeals to free speech and preservation of FA's naming rights."
Actually, paint that again, if you will? Are you not weighing in, or did you just use a word you don't understand?
How about rephrasing that to be:
2) "This was met with both strident appeals to change from some members, as well as comments supportive of free speech and preservation of FA's naming rights."
You know, but...
1) "I'm not here to weigh in on any side of this issue,"
I do give you extra points for trying to limit the discussion here in your last line after that kind of paint job.
As to your proposal? Maybe. Only if there was a toggle on each account (such as mine) that was a "PC on/PC off" toggle so that I could just have a normal experience here that matched the existing publications without unmelting my snowflake every time I wanted to actually see an unfiltered route name. Maybe we could label it "I'm fragile" and click that to turn the filter function on.
is owned by REI. It's their site, not ours. If they find a route name offensive then they can decide not to show it. If you have a problem with a route name you can bring your concern to the moderators and they can decide or uplevel it to REI. But, allowing the users of MP.com to decide is not the answer.
This....is....another.....thread? I just wanna know what so many of these words apparently did to so many people? I get it, it's not 'nice' but ya know neither is life. Shit like this makes me wonder how people get out from under the rocks they live under, or make it any sort of distance without having to run back home. No I don't particularly want to a call a route C*** Buster, in fact I'd probably refer to it as 'That Buster route over there, by so-so route'. But by no means does anything need to be hidden from the community. You would have a much better argument if you talked about the concern for youths in the sport vs your concern for yourself in the sport.
As climbers we have a unique relationship with the mountains. We should come together to educate the rest of the world about original native or indigenous names for mountains and cliff sides that have been left out of guide books, maps, history books. Instead we spend our time bickering about whether it is OK for a shitty piece of inconsequential rock to be called “Year of the Psycho Bitch” or “Pineapple Thunderpussy.”
As if that’s not silly enough, now we are calling for a social media site to put a voting system in place so that we offend fewer privileged white people?
God help humanity.
Hung
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Aug 22, 2019
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Nov 2007
· Points: 0
"No one can offend you without your permission" - Larry' Elder's mom
Why the fuck does anybody care? If you don’t like the name of a route, don’t climb it. Seems like some people want to trurn MP into an over bolted sport climb. youtu.be/fHMoDt3nSHs
Barry M wrote: CIS white males getting offended because some people take offense to sexist, racist, douche bag route names.
PRICELESS
I'm not offended that you're offended. I find a few of the names offensive myself. I think a lot of the pushback is against the idea that your delicate sensibilities should be applied to the whole world.
While no one person could inflict "Hidden by Community" on a climb, in this day-and-age where anybody's "third-rate-burger-joint" can become "Voted Best Restaurant in the City" by the simple expediency of "Facebook Votes" from who-knows-who (many of whom haven't even eaten there !) how could you prevent the same thing from happening here?
Worst-case scenarios are always difficult to fathom and grasp, but I suppose one could imaging someone pissed at the development of a whole AREA gather up his/her friends and friends-of-friends* and transform ALL its 25-or-so routes to "Hidden by Community 5.X"
* They don't even have to be climbers, just registered with MtnPrjct
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