I'm going to take some time this week to ask Ryan and others what their definition of 'warmed up' is. The hike definitely got me out of breath and 'warm'. But it is nothing like the stretching and gradual warm up of body parts that happens in the gym.
Lori, please post here about the warm-up when you get more info from Ryan or anyone else.
Before last year, I never warmed up prior to climbing (or pretty much anything else). Last year, I did a rock-climbing training session with a guy much younger than me who told me it's a good idea to warm up. I've been warming up and stretching prior to gym climbing since then.
However, for outdoor climbing I still never warm up or stretch. The hike in today was about 5 minutes, the temperature was about 70 F when we started, and it quickly got a lot warmer. I just don't see the need. But maybe I'm wrong; I'm willing to be convinced. I am dubious that there's any real "science" behind all the instructions to warm up, stretch etc. One year they tell you to stretch dynamically, the next it's static, etc. If anyone has a convincing study, please post.
Guys, just be careful/thoughtful where you stand if you're belaying very close to the wall. If you're directly under them, and they fall and hit you, that could be real bad for the belayer (like deadly maybe). Also, use belay glasses when sport climbing and gym climbing. It'll save your neck. Your older self will thank you.
Lori, please post here about the warm-up when you get more info from Ryan or anyone else.
Before last year, I never warmed up prior to climbing (or pretty much anything else). Last year, I did a rock-climbing training session with a guy much younger than me who told me it's a good idea to warm up. I've been warming up and stretching prior to gym climbing since then.
Thanks for asking. Had 'the talk' with Ryan again yesterday. I don't know if I mentioned that his Bachelor's degree is in some kind of physical medicine, anyway, I appreciate his knowledge. He said his whole mindset since we started has been on avoiding injuries above anything else. An injury at this age could end the climbing career. He said he has sacrificed some fast progress for safety, but here we are, and I am injury free. He talked about his own trajectory, several injuries that sidelined him for a year at a time, and so now he pulls back and rests at the first sign of strain.
So for outdoor climbing... he said the hike in is ok as a cardio warmup. He uses rocks close to the ground to stretch his arms, fingers and shoulder warmups, and does some yoga stretches for his legs and glutes before hopping on any climb. Depending upon the type of routes he will be climbing, he pays extra attention to the body parts about to be used.
Along those lines, today I saw my doctor about the muscle spasms I experienced in the middle of the night after a day of climbing. He's a Sports Medicine doctor so I trust him. He diagnosed an overuse injury of my adductor muscle (inner thigh)... so, that was a sign of climbing without warming up. His prescription was to 'always front load electrolytes before climbing, especially salt and potassium, stay well hydrated during the climbing time, and completely stretch out at the end of the day." He went on to suggest some specific B Vitamins and Vitamin E as showing to prevent muscle spasms. We talked about CoQ 10 and a few other specific nutrients for preventing injuries. He also referred me to a physical therapist for a session or two to get specific as to this particular injury.
dragons wrote: Harumpfster Boondoggle - "Just another Sierra slab" - nice! Dang I gotta get out there some day.
Carl - That looks like a nice route! Wear a helmet, it will help keep your brain in place if you ever fall with the rope behind your leg. youtu.be/eQYf_b7tQfM?t=313
Lori - "does anyone here have a sense of place in their climbing life?" Nope not really. Whenever I'm climbing, I think "jeez this is the best place ever to climb, we should just move here". I still think my best bet is a dirtbag traveling climber life. BTW did someone hack your account? Your last post about muscle cramps (where you talk about your wife lol) is mighty spammish looking.
Oldtradguy/John - looking forward to meeting you! Just ping me and we'll figure out what to do.
OLH - hope you get out to NH some time, but if I get the chance I would love to join you at City of Rocks some day! It looks massively entertaining!
Yeah, it's one of my favorites. I really should wear my helmet, I paid enough for it it should get some use!!
Lori Milas wrote:...Does anyone experience debilitating muscle cramps? I had to cancel my weekend Wilderness Medicine course because of muscle spasms that started shortly after I went to bed Friday after climbing, and continued on all morning. They were so painful and jolting I considered calling an ambulance... and the pain just didn't let up. This isn't the first time this has happened, but now I'm scared. So, several people recommended Hot Shots from Amazon... and I am going to order some. (Of all places, WHY the adductors?) ...
I'm just skimming the posts so maybe someone mentioned it, but you ARE taking a magnesium supplement aren't you? Pretty much first thing you should try for cramps in my experience.
Also, I highly recommend warming up but NOT stretching before exercise. You don't want to lengthen the muscles and tendons before exercise but you do want to warm them up. I'm pretty sure that's the general consensus these days. I like magnesium powder, it's easy to put some in your water bottle and take it with you. Magnesium and vitamin C are the only supplements I take these days...
I 100% agree that preventing injury should be the main focus for any sport. Unfortunately, most of the advice one comes across is performance-oriented. I think injury prevention is becoming more popular, but it's still not the main focus. Did the sports med doc say you could keep climbing with an overuse injury? Usually they tell you to lay off until it's healed.
Carl brought up magnesium. Did your sports medicine doc mention that? My understanding is that it's important to get the proper ratio of magnesium, calcium and some other minerals, because if you get too much of one it can show up as a deficiency in another. Doctors sometimes encourage patients to take a lot of calcium, in theory to prevent osteoporosis (despite dubious research), but I've never had a doctor suggest I take magnesium, despite the fact that it's apparently quite common to be somewhat deficient. You may want to track your diet for a few days to see if you've got any mineral imbalances. I've used web apps like cronometer and fitday for nutrition tracking in the past. Cronometer at least will show you if you're getting the "correct" ratio of calcium, magnesium, and some other stuff too.
I 100% agree that preventing injury should be the main focus for any sport. Unfortunately, most of the advice one comes across is performance-oriented. I think injury prevention is becoming more popular, but it's still not the main focus. Did the sports med doc say you could keep climbing with an overuse injury? Usually they tell you to lay off until it's healed.
Carl brought up magnesium. Did your sports medicine doc mention that? My understanding is that it's important to get the proper ratio of magnesium, calcium and some other minerals, because if you get too much of one it can show up as a deficiency in another. Doctors sometimes encourage patients to take a lot of calcium, in theory to prevent osteoporosis (despite dubious research), but I've never had a doctor suggest I take magnesium, despite the fact that it's apparently quite common to be somewhat deficient. You may want to track your diet for a few days to see if you've got any mineral imbalances. I've used web apps like cronometer and fitday for nutrition tracking in the past. Cronometer at least will show you if you're getting the "correct" ratio of calcium, magnesium, and some other stuff too.
Hi dragons,
Doc said it's fine to keep on climbing. Nothing is torn or sprained. I don't know why I missed the fact that I had seen him last year worried about the same general area... I thought perhaps I had a hairline fracture in my hip, because pain running from groin to knee. So, it just resurfaced.
Something Ryan and I have been talking a lot about is the lopsided use of certain muscles in climbing, to the exclusion of others. I noticed I was starting to get a hunch forward... which apparently is common in climbers. We have talked about the need to do oppositional exercises in the gym on non-climbing days. I've been doing pec and delt flies to even things out on top--tricep dips so I can deal with chimneys better ... hamstring exercises since we mostly use the quads in climbing. Also, I've been able to stop taping my fingers since doing Esther Smith's finger exercises (for climbers) which work hands going the 'other' way... not being an athlete, this is all new to me. So... my adductor problem came from comparatively weak hamstrings, requiring some oppositional exercises (which I did before, and worked like a charm).
He did not mention magnesium... I already take 600 mg daily (plus Epsom salt baths)... but I was surprised. His handout said "a systematic review of randomized trials comparing magnesium supplementation with placebo identified four trials involving 322 patients with idiopathic (primarily nocturnal) leg cramps; meta-analysis of the trials found no evidence of significant benefit or severity of cramping with magnesium therapy, and this was subsequently reconfirmed in another randomized trial."
Not that magnesium isn't helpful in a thousand other ways, but at least as far as any studies on leg cramps, it's not beneficial. What is helpful, as far as studies go, is Vitamin B6, or a complete B vitamin, and Vitamin E. Iron if there is any anemia. (that would be me. )
I'm just skimming the posts so maybe someone mentioned it, but you ARE taking a magnesium supplement aren't you? Pretty much first thing you should try for cramps in my experience.
Also, I highly recommend warming up but NOT stretching before exercise. You don't want to lengthen the muscles and tendons before exercise but you do want to warm them up. I'm pretty sure that's the general consensus these days. I like magnesium powder, it's easy to put some in your water bottle and take it with you. Magnesium and vitamin C are the only supplements I take these days...
Carl, have you hired a ghost writer? These recent gentlemanly posts worry me. What happened to the poet/bard Aussie climber who sings in his soup? I want to know if someone has taken you hostage and is posting in your place.
Lori Milas wrote: Yes. I would have caught him. But I don't know what I would have done with him.
You should have asked him, give him a call and say you have been thinking about it, discuss it.
Jeffrey Constine wrote: PS regulations do exist for climbing.
Jeffrey I am familiar with access issues, bolting regulations/restrictions, and assumed risk liability, are there other regulations that I am missing?
Greg Opland wrote: I wouldn't hurt my wife in a million years either, if I could possibly help it, but I weigh almost twice as much as she does, and if I take a winger, she's coming off the ground. What she's NOT going to do is get dragged across the ground and slammed into the rock, because she's belaying below me, not standing out away from the rock. Sounds like you learned a big lesson on that one.
Yes that and others have been valuable hard knock lessons with only minor consequences. We feel pretty successful. But as with most things climbing there are good practices and exceptions to good practices. Like don't stand directly below the climber when there is a lot of loose rock. She will still tie into something on the ground from time to time depending on the situation, which means we have climbed enough to now know what those situations look like.
dragons wrote: Guys, just be careful/thoughtful where you stand if you're belaying very close to the wall. If you're directly under them, and they fall and hit you, that could be real bad for the belayer (like deadly maybe).
Another situation to consider.
Lori Milas wrote:
Hi dragons,
Doc said it's fine to keep on climbing. Nothing is torn or sprained. )
You have lead a sheltered life. I have lots of broken parts. Right now I am dealing with a PITA. Really a PITA, fell on my motorcycle and jammed a passenger foot peg into my right rear cheek, I thought it was just bruised, but it's been a month and it still bothers me some. The good news is I can't set for very long before it really starts to hurt, have to get up and move.
Lori Milas wrote: So for outdoor climbing... he said the hike in is ok as a cardio warmup
I have never been a super fine tuned athlete, so the science behind exercise is beyond me. I will tell you I am warmed up by carrying my 30 lb pack up a steep hill often over very rough terrain. And then the first few moves up a rock I kind of over exaggerate the movement resulting in stretching things out. Nothing formal, just kind of waking the animal up.
Yes. I would have caught him. But I don't know what I would have done with him. .
I have been thinking about this some more, so I looked it up. I think you have a copy of the Bob Gaines book Advanced Rock Climbing. So get together with Nelson and go do the processes outlined in pages 242-247, Assistance from below, Climber Pickoff, and Rescuing a leader. Be sure and video the first attempts, it'll be hilarious, but when you are successful with them you both will be more knowledgeable and more trusting.
These things are not just for super experienced guide rescue folks, they are for everyone. You don't have to be hanging off El Cap to learn/practice it, you can be 2' off the ground or hanging from a rafter in your garage.
Lori my idea of a warm up is to climb something ridiculously easy first just to get everything working. Then do something harder but avoid a flash pump at all costs- get lowered. Repeat again- quickly. Then climb something that makes you work some... then maintain the warm up by staying warm- a jacket. Think baseball pitchers, they warm up by playing catch for awhile then slowly build up the intensity level to the point that they can throw a ball so hard that it will rip the muscles off of the bone if they tried to throw that hard cold. I think that all people react differently to physical activity and many of the people I climb with disagree with me about this strategy. Of course this only applies for sport climbing where you have a project to send. For “real climbing” sometimes one needs to be able to “get it going” right off the bat at 5:30am after a bad nights sleep, no coffee and little water.
I have been thinking about this some more, so I looked it up. I think you have a copy of the Bob Gaines book Advanced Rock Climbing. So get together with Nelson and go do the processes outlined in pages 242-247, Assistance from below, Climber Pickoff, and Rescuing a leader. Be sure and video the first attempts, it'll be hilarious, but when you are successful with them you both will be more knowledgeable and more trusting.
These things are not just for super experienced guide rescue folks, they are for everyone. You don't have to be hanging off El Cap to learn/practice it, you can be 2' off the ground or hanging from a rafter in your garage.
Dallas. Thank you so much. I mean really... THANK YOU. This has been quite a conversation. Nelson and I had gone out many times... so he must have been confident in my abilities. We did the normal checks and talk from the ground. But all the what if’s came crowding in and I realized this was a dicey route. I wanted to keep him safe.
I will follow your suggestions and talk to Nelson next time we’re out. I do have Gaines book and will read those pages. My whole goal lately is to be a good and reliable partner so it’s with that in mind that I have questioned this situation. I have so much to learn.
Working tiny crimps and bad feet on a blank face at the top of the 5.10 on the Bilk Creek Wall just outside of Telluride, CO. I confess that I grunted. But I made the route on my first try up. After this, I went on to get my butt kicked by the 5.11 next door.
Carl, have you hired a ghost writer? These recent gentlemanly posts worry me. What happened to the poet/bard Aussie climber who sings in his soup? I want to know if someone has taken you hostage and is posting in your place.
I think maybe I'm growing up at last. My wife would disagree, she says I act like a 15 year old girl...
I have been thinking about this some more, so I looked it up. I think you have a copy of the Bob Gaines book Advanced Rock Climbing. So get together with Nelson and go do the processes outlined in pages 242-247, Assistance from below, Climber Pickoff, and Rescuing a leader. Be sure and video the first attempts, it'll be hilarious, but when you are successful with them you both will be more knowledgeable and more trusting.
These things are not just for super experienced guide rescue folks, they are for everyone. You don't have to be hanging off El Cap to learn/practice it, you can be 2' off the ground or hanging from a rafter in your garage.
You have lead a sheltered life. I have lots of broken parts.
Dallas... not to beat this dead horse... but I'm taking in all the comments on this thread, most of which seem to say hey, if the climber wants it, it's on him. I'm thinking maybe I have some responsibility here not to go along with a bad idea. THIS idea (lead belaying Nelson on Loose Lady) was probably not a bad idea. He's a strong climber, and he knew what he was doing. But this conversation has made me understand that I feel a lot like you feel with Barb... a great sense of responsibility to be ready and able to handle any situation. I know that's not possible, but we can work at it. This is a slow transition for me, from me standing around with my hands in my pockets while someone else sets up everything, to taking up my share of the climbing venture.
With regards to broken parts ... we all have to count our blessings. This is one advantage to starting climbing (or any physical endeavor!) so dang late in life! I came in fresh, with no injuries except an old rotator cuff. Clean slate. I get to START banging stuff up now, and hopefully won't push it to the limit just yet. -------------------- I have met an old-timer climber--from that first pack in Yosemite... and we have formed an unusual friendship. He wrote this yesterday: "I taught my students how NOT to fall, how to hang on and work through situations or downclimb and to push beyond what they think they can do. To practice falling is antithetical. Practice balance, body position, conserving energy, technique, footwork.... oh sure, i understand the modern philosophy behind it. There is a place and time to learn about falling, but at your level you should be learning to trust yourself and not the belay and rope. The rope should be a backup to your climbing -- not your climbing be a backup to the gear and rope."
If I could pry that knowledge out of his brain... but it's what we're all after. As my little buddy Jeremy said "My only job was NOT to let go." What a sport!
I apologize for my constant stoke, guys... you who did this years ago, and it's old news... I hope you just skip by my journaling.
It's been such a surreal experience to just hand myself over to a few good climbers and say... mold me. It's almost like I just stepped away from my own body for awhile, and let someone else take over. It must be difficult for whoever is on the other side (trainer/coach) to find that right amount of challenge, without pushing past it. With friends, I know where my limit is and just have fun.
So... the relationship with Ryan just evolves. I wish I had some way of saying 'thank you' in a way that would carry real meaning. He doesn't need another cam or nut. Or mug from Joshua Tree. But he's given me something of great value. I want him to know it's not 'just' climbing. Still looking for that special something...
I got the clipping down. Did my first 'real' lead on a 10b and it went fine. I was more interested in what Ryan was doing with his belaying... moving from side to side as I traversed, watching me like a hawk... called me on a rope problem just once. This is some kind of new intensity unlike anything in top roping. Then it was time to take a fall... I laughed that HE was probably not ready. Even rehearsed, it was a surprise... but so. much. fun. He forgot to mention that he would pull off the ground, we'd probably lever about evenly in the air. So, I'm assuming this ONLY happens in the gym? ------------------------ And now lead training is over for a bit, and so are the 11's routes. Come Monday we start with the 'endurance' work... which I sorely need again. Laps, laps, and more laps... climbing all the 10's over the next month, just moving. Down climbing. I'm starting to see how this works. Without endurance, strength means nothing... we need both. I'd like to come back to tackle the harder 11's without having to stop and take a rest... without panting.
Lori Milas wrote: ... a great sense of responsibility to be ready and able to handle any situation. I know that's not possible, but we can work at it.....
I think you may have expressed one of my underlying philosophical beliefs.
He forgot to mention that he would pull off the ground, we'd probably lever about evenly in the air. So, I'm assuming this ONLY happens in the gym?
Not, I have grabbed Barb while I was on my way down and she was on her way up....
Lori Milas wrote: I apologize for my constant stoke, guys... you who did this years ago, and it's old news... I hope you just skip by my journaling.
It's been such a surreal experience to just hand myself over to a few good climbers and say... mold me. It's almost like I just stepped away from my own body for awhile, and let someone else take over. It must be difficult for whoever is on the other side (trainer/coach) to find that right amount of challenge, without pushing past it. With friends, I know where my limit is and just have fun.
So... the relationship with Ryan just evolves. I wish I had some way of saying 'thank you' in a way that would carry real meaning. He doesn't need another cam or nut. Or mug from Joshua Tree. But he's given me something of great value. I want him to know it's not 'just' climbing. Still looking for that special something...
I got the clipping down. Did my first 'real' lead on a 10b and it went fine. I was more interested in what Ryan was doing with his belaying... moving from side to side as I traversed, watching me like a hawk... called me on a rope problem just once. This is some kind of new intensity unlike anything in top roping. Then it was time to take a fall... I laughed that HE was probably not ready. Even rehearsed, it was a surprise... but so. much. fun. He forgot to mention that he would pull off the ground, we'd probably lever about evenly in the air. So, I'm assuming this ONLY happens in the gym? ------------------------ And now lead training is over for a bit, and so are the 11's routes. Come Monday we start with the 'endurance' work... which I sorely need again. Laps, laps, and more laps... climbing all the 10's over the next month, just moving. Down climbing. I'm starting to see how this works. Without endurance, strength means nothing... we need both. I'd like to come back to tackle the harder 11's without having to stop and take a rest... without panting.
Lol! No, dear, not just in a gym. Looking down at your climber, who is only three feet off the ground you are now well above? Type two fun. Not what you are aiming for, and exactly why your "only" job as a belayer, is to hang on. No matter what. I did, and we are BFF now. Precisely why I and others have been after you to understand at least a tiny bit how falls work if you are belaying. Because even those extremely qualified guys you climb with can have a surprise happen. If that wasn't the case, why bother with a rope at all? If you don't know you might go up, even with a lighter climber, even on a top rope, don't have any idea how far the climber will fall from rope stretch, slack in the system, all that sort of stuff? No, you don't have to practice falls as a climber (I fall tons, myself, intended or not, lol), but catching falls you really should practice, IMO. Very, very carefully, even in a gym.
In other news....
Can a climbing trip be a huge success, even with almost no actual climbing?
Yes!
I'm just back from two days of belaying. A friend asked for help, and I said yes, plus brought two of my partners. So, one instructor and three belay slaves with a group of teens aged 12-18. Almost all of them never climbed before, indoors or out. Now? With the instruction, encouragement, and coaching? Not only are most all of them hooked on climbing, they also have a pretty good grasp how this thing we do can apply to so much else in their lives.
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