Why use a third hand?

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

Time and convenience. There are tradeoffs to most of the choices we make. Another reason why I like the MegJul, no need to rig a backup.

There are other reasons as well. The need to extend your device is a big one for me. Being short, if I adequately extend my device then it is at face level, which increases the risk of body parts becoming entangle in the device, makes it more difficult to see and maneuver, among other things.

Also, managing a friction hitch is not very ergonomic to begin with, and is even less so when you have your brake hand out to the side down by your hip as opposed to keeping the brake strand centered between your legs.

A good compromise for me has been using an assisted braking device. However, it is imperative to still have the capability of rapping with a 3rd hand even if you go this route. If you ever need to tandem rap or something similar in a self-rescue situation, you're going to want to have 1 hand free, which is possible with a third hand but not so much with all of the assisted braking devices currently on the market. 

Here's Jim Ratz ANAM report mentioned above:
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13200608000/Fall-on-Rock-Rappel-ErrorRappelled-off-End-of-Rope-Wyoming-Lander-Sinks-Canyon

The autoblock was clipped to a leg loop, which has a failure mode that's fairly well-known by now. No knot at the end of the rope probably also contributed the accident. It’s interesting that people keep making the stubborn argument against knotting the end of the rope, “but what if your rope gets blown sideways and get stuck in a crack?” Yeah, what if? You’re stuck, you can’t get down, you may need to call for help and someone may need to come and get you. So I guess a quick end by rappelling off the ends of the rope is more preferable than the embarrassment of a rescue? Better yet, maybe don’t toss the rope if it’s really windy. There are plenty of ways to manage the rope when rappelling in a high wind situation.

eli poss wrote: If you ever need to tandem rap or something similar in a self-rescue situation, you're going to want to have 1 hand free, which is possible with a third hand but not so much with all of the assisted braking devices currently on the market. 

Forgive my ignorance. Why would you need a hand free to tandem rap?

By the way, if you are going to trust an assisted braking device to be your autoblock, please check out its behavior near the end of the rappel (with a belay of course).  It takes rope weight to activate locking, and as you near the end rope weight decreases.

As for knots, I've gotten into bad situations twice with them, and neither time was wind involved.  I'm not going to tell anyone else what they should do, but my general approach when I think knots could cause problems is to rappel without knots, keeping a careful eye on the ends, and stop when I'm about 30 feet from the ends and then knot them to protect against screw-ups with the landing.  (When I stop for anything on rappel, whether I'm using an autoblock or an assisted braking device, I install leg wraps, which I think are the only foolproof backup for hands-free work.)

I don't think the point of the third hand is to help people who have bad rap technique. its simply to add to the idea of redundancy in extreme or freak instances. People should be taught to never let go of the break hand and also rap with a third hand because it's redundant and redundancy saves lives. Being ignorant and expecting yourself to keep your break hand on and rap safely every time is what gets people injured or killed and that's the bottom line.

I know of at least one case where an autoblock saved someone from an improperly threaded rappel device (only one end of the rope threaded).

I lost faith in an autoblock below the rap device (or above) when doing some backyard testing. Things as subtle as the length of the cord loop can make a difference in whether it can be kept loose enough to manually slide down the rope but still tight enough to catch in a surprise fall. Especially in a bail situation where one might be rapping on a single line.

Still, it can be fine tuned for a high probability of working in a surprise. Or the single-purpose software like the hollow bloc seem promising. But in my preferred style of climbing (remote multi-pitch), I am reluctant to bring single-purpose gear.

Highlander wrote: I know of at least one case where an autoblock saved someone from an improperly threaded rappel device (only one end of the rope threaded).

Another instance where they should remain attached to the anchor until they test their rap setup with bodyweight. Which brings up an interesting point... if you're extending your belay device, it becomes more difficult to put your weight on the rappel prior to disconnecting from the anchor.

I think there's a lot of power in simplicity.   And self-reliance.   I like quickly getting on rappel and cruising down the line.  To me, I'm not going to drop myself.    Perhaps in an alpine - loose rock situation I might use an autoblock but under most circumstances there aren't blocks flying down at me as I rock climb.

Russ Keane wrote: I think there's a lot of power in simplicity.   And self-reliance.   I like quickly getting on rappel and cruising down the line.  To me, I'm not going to drop myself.    Perhaps in an alpine - loose rock situation I might use an autoblock but under most circumstances there aren't blocks flying down at me as I rock climb.

this is akin to saying, "i don't wear my seat belt because there are not reckless drivers around me." the entire point of a 3rd hand has nothing to to with self reliance...it has everything to do with the variables that are outside your control. 

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

Forgive my ignorance. Why would you need a hand free to tandem rap?

Unless it is a free hanging rappel, you may need that hand to brace against the rock for stability and/or assist in maneuvering your victim. If you ever have to tandem rap with an unconscious victim (but hopefully you won't ever have to do that), their body is going to get in the way constantly and may need to be a very hands-on process unless you just let them cheesegrate down the side of the rock. 

Of course need is a strong word in this case, but having a free hand available may be a huge help in assisting you and/or your victim down a wide range of terrain. You may often be able manage without it but having a free hand might make things easier/more convenient/more comfortable. 

Russ Keane wrote: I think there's a lot of power in simplicity.   And self-reliance.   I like quickly getting on rappel and cruising down the line.  To me, I'm not going to drop myself.    Perhaps in an alpine - loose rock situation I might use an autoblock but under most circumstances there aren't blocks flying down at me as I rock climb.

For what it is worth, this ^^^^ is akin to my approach. Still, most my climb partners have gone to almost always extending their rap device and almost always using a “third hand”. But not my favorite partner. :)

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

if you're extending your belay device, it becomes more difficult to put your weight on the rappel prior to disconnecting from the anchor.

No it doesn't, if the thing is set up correctly. I've never had trouble pulling up the rope and transfer my weight to the belay device even on a hanging anchor. But this goes back to my point of "setting it up correctly" and "practice makes perfect". When someone practices the use a third-hand all the time, then they will get their system dialed and figure out all the do's and dont's. On the other hand, if someone only knows how to set up a third-hand in theory, and need to use it for real one day, they may remember seeing something online once and set it up like what they saw. A quick Google search yielded article 1, article 2, article 3, article 4, article 5, and a video. Most of these would be considered "trusted sources" by many. No offense to any of the authors (I know one of them personally), but none of them got it right.

All of these online articles and the video suffer from the same critical problem: they all extend their device way too freaking far. Most of these methods use a double shoulder-length sling with a knot in the middle for the belay device. That's fine when you're standing on a big ledge or a slab to shoot some demo photos and videos, but in practice, once fully extended the top of the belay device is easily at the top of the climbers head or even beyond their reach. That makes transferring weight to the device at a hanging anchor quite tricky, and rappelling over an overhang will be very difficult. I use a single shoulder length halved (basket hitch), or the hole that the first link of my PAS is sewn to. But the method I use is not nearly as important as how far the belay device is extended: the top of my belay device is no higher than my chin when loaded. So I can easily pull up on the rope to take in slack at a hanging anchor, and I won't slam my head into an overhang when I rappel over it.

Most of the methods I've seen also use a prussic loop that is way too long. Probably what caused them to extend their device so far, or sometimes people will make extra wraps so the autoblock will not touch the device. Both create other problems. The length of the loop should be adjusted so it can be wrapped around two strands of rope three times with just barely enough left to clip into the biner. Simply tie an overhand knot in whatever loop of cord/hollow block you use to adjust the length (yes strength reduction with a knot, I'm gonna die, so on and so forth).

These are two pretty important factors in the practical use of setting up a third-hand with an extended device, yet no online articles talk about how to get this right.

aikibujin wrote: No it doesn't, if the thing is set up correctly.

I suspect you missed the point. 

Extending a rap device uses up space between the anchor and the ledge, limiting the space for pre-weighting the threaded rap device (e.g., bump test) before disconnecting your tether from the anchor. 

Of course, one can just be sure to have an even longer tether, downclimb if necessary to weight, clamber back up to untether, downclimb to get back on the device.

But it must not be as bad as I make it sound. Plenty of my partners extend their rap devices and regularly manage a bump test without undue fuss.

Only trouble I have seen with an extended rap device is the device catching at the lip of a roof. So some increase in chance of this occurring if one decides it is worth it to extend to accommodate having a hitch below.

Bill Lawry wrote: I suspect you missed the point. 

I didn't miss the point, but you missed my entire post. You're trying to come up with issues when you don't even use the system. "Not being able to bump test," "catching at the lip of a roof" are all non-issues if the device is extended properly. Again, I have no problem bump test (or whatever other name people use) my set up on a hanging anchor like I said in my post, that's what I do when I transfer my weight to the device. I don't need a longer tether, I don't need to climb up and down a bunch of times, I can do it as easily as if the belay device is on my belay loop, because my device is only extended just a few inches above my belay loop, not an arm's length away. That was like the entire point of my last post (with the same boldface font and everything). You said so yourself, "Plenty of my partners extend their rap devices and regularly manage a bump test without undue fuss." That's because they actually use it and know the correct way to set it up.

aikibujin wrote: I didn't miss the point, but you missed my entire post. You're trying to come up with issues when you don't even use the system. 

To help avoid assumptions ...

I read and understood your post. It was clear. It did not directly address the point. 

Even properly set up, there will be some cases where it makes the bump test harder. Heck, even without an extension, some circumstances make the so-called bump test awkward. So it is not much of a stretch to imagine an extension adding a bit more to that (Note: the bump test is not something I rely on much.)

And I used the system for about a year with 5mm cord. This was around the time a video came out of a probably novice canyoneer decking while rapping a single line with a hitch below the device. BTW, that video was not what  led me to discontinue using it - I already had.

Edit to add: someone else upstream alluded that an improperly set up auto bloc that allowing the hitch to reach the ATC will simply jam in the device and halt the rap. There is also some probability the ATC will simply push the hitch down the line.

Briggs Lazalde wrote:... autoblocks are more trust worthy than some people are making them out to be...

There was that discussion not many posts back about how untrustworthy it was to rap without a third hand. Both that and the quote above omit the element of probability though you did state success in hundreds of trials. (Edit to add: but not ‘surprise’ trials.)

Maybe I am more suspicious than most. I never could wholly trust my life to an auto bloc. Even when using it, I would usually add leg wraps if needing to go hands free.

I can’t even read most of this cringe ego bullshit.

Did anyone in four pages figure out why not to use an autoblock?

And further since it seems like “it’s a hassle” is being put forward, my autoblock is usually clipped on while my partner is rappelling, AKA I’m waiting anyway, and it in no way slows me down, and takes ~10 seconds to remove....?

I’ve seen a bunch of people who’s kit is fucked, but if you get your setup right than you literally don’t know it’s there and it has countless uses including life saving means.

Not doing is either ignorance or arrogance.

Bill Lawry wrote:

Maybe I am more suspicious than most. I never could wholly trust my life to an auto bloc. Even when using it, I would usually add leg wraps if needing to go hands free.

Yeah so someone taught you a shit way to setup your autoblock... I see that every time I climb and wonder why those people don’t assess their kit and make changes.

Reading another post on the specifics of extending your device and creating autoblock.... the way the AMC teaches climbers out here is $&@#’ed (similar to method explained above). Slings and knots and lockers and I don’t know how more people don’t question. They teach all these fundamentals to climbing but then all of the sudden you need to be a rocket scientist to rappel. And no way for your partner to assess (unless they’ve got a degree in fuckery too) because it’s so complicated. KISS