Route Manufacturing - opinion survey for article

Blake Neville wrote:

A lot of people outside of the trad community do in fact have a problem with this. Maybe you don't understand coming from the sport climbing community that relies on the bolts, but a lot of places don't allow new fixed protection to be installed. There are also places that don't even allow old pro to be replaced. Forest services prevent bolting in certain areas, they prevent new route creation, and then there are details that keep people from doing a lot of other things. Many people don't like hiking and coming upon a bolt in rock, nor do some land owners appreciate when people bolt their rock. It's not just people trying to destroy sport climbing, like I said, I do enjoy it. I do not however think we should continue bolting lines because of the damage it does and the ethical problems it causes.

This might be the best post I have ever seen on this subject. I 100% agree with you, and you managed to say it without insulting anyone or throwing elitism into it, as often happens. Well done.

North Col wrote: I dont understand that changing or modifiying the existing rock is such a no-no by most of yhe climbing community. I know nature should not be destroyed or defaced by man etc. but what harm is it really changing the rock to have a few holds?

Im guessing the trad community will take out the torches on me

Yes mabye im being naive but why the outcry? 

Pandora's box.  Once you change it, you can't un-change it.  What gives us the right to modify natural features that have developed over millions of years, to forever deny the ability for future generations to see it as it was?    Once you normalize the practice of creating artificial routes on natural rock, where does it stop?  How do we enforce standards and quality?  Who gets to choose what to modify and how?  There is no reason to believe once the practice starts that it will enjoy and kind of restraint -- I would expect if it were "allowed" then artificial routes would be as common as bolted routes soon.

It reminds me of the first settlers who encountered the giant sequoia in California.  Trees that have been growing literally for thousands of years mostly destroyed in less than a generation and turned into what?  Railroad ties mostly.  They were some of the largest living organisms in the world and now they're gone.  A few people took them from the rest of us for their own selfish purposes.  Fuck them and their myopic solipsism.

. Mobes wrote:

He never will because of Old Man Stubborn Syndrome\OMSS. I bet he could though we'll never know.

You're right, I don't really care for the rock at Smith and when I do head over there it's mainly to hang with friends who do love it and put up a lot of the original hard FAs there.

Healyje wrote: You're right, I don't really care for the rock at Smith and when I do head over there it's mainly to hang with friends who do love it and put up a lot of the original hard FAs there.

I thought it was pretty bomber volcanic choss, above average but not much. So you do climb there occasionally or do you just sit there and gape?

. Mobes wrote:

I thought it was pretty bomber volcanic choss, above average but not much. So you do climb there occasionally or do you just sit there and gape?

Very rarely, usually several miles northwest of Smith along the river, but prefer the surfing there over the climbing.

Healyje wrote: You're right, I don't really care for the rock at Smith and when I do head over there it's mainly to hang with friends who do love it and put up a lot of the original hard FAs there.

What original hard routes have your friends put up? Bet they were modified...

Next time I talk with him I'll ask if he and/or the rest of the original hardman crew were manufacturing holds on their FAs.

Healyje wrote: Next time I talk with him I'll ask if he and/or the rest of the original hardman crew were manufacturing holds on their FAs.

Well, it's a good thing that we now know that you know or have known hardman FAs, otherwise we would never "know". 

Nawmean?

Tradiban wrote:

Well, it's a good thing that we now know that you know or have known hardman FAs, otherwise we would never "know". 

Nawmean?

Haha, that’s what makes him cool

Someone drank too much haterade..

Dont drink the Kool Aid Billy! Itll git ya

Chris Hatzai wrote:

Haha, that’s what makes him cool.

Cool is as cool does...

Tradiban wrote:

Well, it's a good thing that we now know that you know or have known hardman FAs, otherwise we would never "know". 

Nawmean?

He doesn't just know hardmen, he sends their 5.14 projects with a hip belay when they are too scared to do so. 

And again, you guys are fucking stupids claiming that rock manufacture is always about dumbing down the route and making it easier. I have seen as many holds knocked off or glued shut in order to make the route consistent and/or harder. No one on this thread seems to grasp this issue.  Sometimes I thought it insane and a crime, while a few of the routes turned into my favorite, but if you are going to participate in a conversation about rock modification, at least educate yourself on the subject. 

Jack Quarless wrote:

He doesn't just know hardmen, he sends their 5.14 projects with a hip belay when they are too scared to do so. 

And again, you guys are fucking stupids claiming that rock manufacture is always about dumbing down the route and making it easier. I have seen as many holds knocked off or glued shut in order to make the route consistent and/or harder. No one on this thread seems to grasp this issue.  Sometimes I thought it insane and a crime, while a few of the routes turned into my favorite, but if you are going to participate in a conversation about rock modification, at least educate yourself on the subject. 

Educate yourself about sculpting the rock to be good! Classic jack! This opens up so so much!

. Mobes wrote:

Educate yourself about sculpting the rock to be good! Classic jack! This opens up so so much!

Of all of the routes ive developed so far at Smith, the 5.10s needed the MOST cleaning.. Those warmups, and judging by your tick list, what youd be mainly climbing, needed considerably more rock removed (compared to 5.12’s and up) to make them safe for people like you to project (That’s called modifying the rock heavily for a route to go safely.) For you to argue a sloping flake being chipped to be able to actually pull down on the thing is something i assume you have zero understanding of. 

Chris Hatzai wrote:

Of all of the routes ive developed so far at Smith, the 5.10s needed the MOST cleaning.. Those warmups, and judging by your tick list, what youd be mainly climbing, needed considerably more rock removed (compared to 5.12’s and up) to make them safe for people like you to project (That’s called modifying the rock heavily for a route to go safely.) For you to argue a sloping flake being chipped to be able to actually pull down on the thing is something i assume you have zero understanding of. 

With all the drama and chipping, it sounds like Smith kinda sucks.

To sum it all up: manufacturing a high end difficult climb is like sculpting the rock , a work of art that’s enjoyable to climb; manufacturing a moderate route is dumbing down rock and is undesirable.

Tradiban wrote:

With all the drama and chipping, it sounds like Smith kinda sucks.

Haha youd probably think it sucks. Youd be doing a lot of walking between walls to find things you could actually climb.. Lots of people love it though. 

Chris Hatzai wrote:

Haha youd probably think it sucks. Youd be doing a lot of walking between walls to find things you could actually climb.. Lots of people love it though. 

And I love how you're a 5.12 sport climber who thinks he's badass cause he climbs 5.12 sport. Hint: I'm not impressed.

I have been to Smith, just another sport climber exploited choss pile. It's kinda sad really, it looks so elegant in those wide shot pics but up close quite ugly, smeared with chalk everywhere, and the "scene" is just a huge mess, hobos everywhere, routes all messy from chop jobs and pry bars.

Take a trip and get out there to visit some crags that have aged nicely, you may gain a better perspective.

Tradiban wrote:

And I love how you're a 5.12 sport climber who thinks he's badass cause he climbs 5.12 sport. Hint: I'm not impressed.

I have been to Smith, just another sport climber exploited choss pile. It's kinda sad really, it looks so elegant in those wide shot pics but up close quite ugly, smeared with chalk everywhere, and the "scene" is just a huge mess, hobos everywhere, routes all messy from chop jobs and pry bars.

Take a trip and get out there to visit some crags that have aged nicely, you may gain a better perspective.

As far as badassery goes im pretty low down on the totem pole here at Smith Rock. This place is pretty perfect for me though.. it’s a lifetime of projects waiting for me on these walls. But as for you, youre a 5.10 internet know it all who has a professional opinion on everything.. 

Haha so you have been to Smith.. didnt climb much did ya? And coming from the east coast, the NRG goes in the books as my favorite climbing area.. RRG is mighty fine as well. The Gunks is amazing and the crags throughout Colorado’s front range were also amazing to so-so.. 
You sure told me! Still, you did more watching than climbing at one of the hardest crags in the country... 

Chris Hatzai wrote:

Of all of the routes ive developed so far at Smith, the 5.10s needed the MOST cleaning.. Those warmups, and judging by your tick list, what youd be mainly climbing, needed considerably more rock removed (compared to 5.12’s and up) to make them safe for people like you to project (That’s called modifying the rock heavily for a route to go safely.) For you to argue a sloping flake being chipped to be able to actually pull down on the thing is something i assume you have zero understanding of. 

plz tell us all more about your sport manufacturing!

Oh wait, that's all you do. 

Smith has some good lines but most of the good ones were done 20+ years ago.

Quite a few lines I've done in the past were one move wonders, maybe I should have sculpted them to be more consistent and popular eh? No thanks.