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Route Manufacturing - opinion survey for article


O · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 65
Lena chita wrote: Setting aside my opinion of manufacturing routes, here is a thought experiment:

Suppose we took a 1000 MP users and put them on a 100 climbs in Tensleep, picking a selection of routes from completely unaltered, to aggressively cleaned/comfirtized, to full on manufactured. And we don’t tell them anything about these routes. How many people will spontaneously notice that some of these routes are manufactured?

Suppose we take another 1000 people, put them on the same 100 climbs, and tell them that some holds are manufactured, and it is their job to correctly identify the manufactured holds. How many people do you think will correctly identify manufactured holds, and not make any mistakes?

My opinion: not many.

I wonder about this, because in the Tensleep thread someone specifically called out a specific route of Huey, Joy of Herecy at the Ark, as an example of manufactured route, because how else would you get those two perfect deep 1 inch mono pockets?

Now, I, as well as every person who climbed that route, I’m prettt sure, will know which mono pockets the poster referred to. And I, as well as many people, I’m sure, have gotten to those Monos and thought: must be drilled. Couldn’t possibly be natural!

BUT: people who know a lot more about the limestone than I do tell me that those two pockets are NOT drilled. They are the perfect reverse fossils. And you can supposedly tell if you feel the texture inside, which doesn’t feel like drill marks. 

Short of Huey coming here and telling us, under oath, whether he has, or hasn’t, done anything to those mono pockets, if you have a dozen experienced climbers who can’t immediately tell
If a hold is manufactured or not, do you want to bet that most people who are outraged about hold manufacturing in Tensleep, without ever having set a foot in Tensleep, would actually not be able to tell?

How many people are outraged by vandalism anywhere else in the natural world if they haven’t been there?

How many people signed a petition to protect Bears ear that won’t step foot there or know any better in 50 years? 
See how silly that sounds?
m Mobes · · MDI, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 905

I like how it's gone from comfortizing and trundling to full on manufactured routes! I feel as though the true gymbots have been called out.

m Mobes · · MDI, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 905


Jack Quarless · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0
Fehim Hasecic wrote:

Both, I antagonize about it night and day. I went to see a shrink about it, my marriage has been affected by it. Not all of us can ascend the sculpted rocks like you bruh, nothing funny about it.

You could ascend rocks like me if you only tried, I am about as mediocre as it gets.

Mel on · · NJ · Joined Sep 2018 · Points: 0

Good survey.

Climbing is about challenging yourself to succeed in a world that really doesn't care if you live or die. It's you vs. the rock (/ice/mountain/etc.). The end. It seems to be the complete antithesis of that idea to accommodate people who just want it to be easier. Rock climbing shouldn't be handicapped for those unable to succeed.

Bolting, at least, is done for safety. Chipping holds is just done because people want the world to be sculpted, literally, to fit their wants. 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,510
. Mobes wrote:



This begs the question, is, what's her name, appropriating climbing culture?

Blake Neville · · Lexington, KY · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 57
Jack Quarless wrote:

When reading about other mediocre climbers, does it make you all butt hurt or does it hurt your butt? It's just a throughtful question and I want your thoughtful response. The fact you think 12+ is climbing hard is funny as shit. I guess that's how you justify ticking v0 boulder problems. 

100% one of the most ignorant "I'm better than you haha" statements I've ever seen in my life. But seriously who else remembers this train of thought when you won the kindergarten 4 square game and all of a sudden everyone else was pathetic? Just me?

Jack Quarless · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0
Blake Neville wrote:

100% one of the most ignorant "I'm better than you haha" statements I've ever seen in my life. But seriously who else remembers this train of thought when you won the kindergarten 4 square game and all of a sudden everyone else was pathetic? Just me?

 I don't remember that kindergarten game but I do remember the I am rubber you are glue one. I was born in the 70's, and if you can't out climb and old man then you aren't trying very hard. If this is the most ignorant statement you have seen in your life you need to get out a bit more, I am sure a precursory glance will give you some context. Perhaps you should look at the religion in alpinism thread for a start.

the schmuck · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 115
mel on wrote: Good survey.

Climbing is about challenging yourself to succeed in a world that really doesn't care if you live or die. It's you vs. the rock (/ice/mountain/etc.). The end. It seems to be the complete antithesis of that idea to accommodate people who just want it to be easier. Rock climbing shouldn't be handicapped for those unable to succeed.

Bolting, at least, is done for safety. Chipping holds is just done because people want the world to be sculpted, literally, to fit their wants. 

How about chipping holds down to make a route/problem harder?  I know of several boulder problems like that, and it is more common than you may think.

Kelley Gilleran · · Sacramento, Ca · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 2,800

Or Gioia V16 where Core filled in a foothold to keep the boulder at the same grade

Jack Quarless · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0
Kelley Gilleran wrote: Or Gioia V16 where Core filled in a foothold to keep the boulder at the same grade

I already tried to discuss this issue but the ideologues dismissed the information because it didn't fit into the arguments of their ethical crusade.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,510

Sport climbing ethics is like a bunch of mobsters debating the most ethical way to shoot somebody in the head.

Mel on · · NJ · Joined Sep 2018 · Points: 0
the schmuck wrote:

How about chipping holds down to make a route/problem harder?  I know of several boulder problems like that, and it is more common than you may think.

Yeah interesting point. I still have to stand firmly against it though; I don't see a way I could get behind it in one direction and not the other.

Also, it's still changing the shape of a rock to fit what they think would be a good climb. Who is authorized to create a climb that is any good? Could I come along and chip it so that it climbs differently? Would they try to modify it again once I'm done? Who is to say the climb has been chipped to perfection? Will we need route setters for rock now? You could never share beta about a climb when you don't know when's the last time someone chipped it.

Better to leave it as it is. At least, no one can point fingers for bad setting or complain that a route needs to be changed because it's awkward/not their style. It would be a disaster. 
bus driver · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 1,200

If chipping is bad, How bad is retro chipping?

Lena chita · · OH · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 1,040
PosiDave wrote:

How many people are outraged by vandalism anywhere else in the natural world if they haven’t been there?


Not the same thing, imo. People are using words like vandalism, desecration, ruining the rock...
Well, when I see vandalism, I don’t have to wonder if this is vandalism, or if the graffiti was here naturally, and the statue’s face was always meant to be smashed with a hammer. 

My point wasn’t that one couldn’t be outraged by something unless they had seen it personally. My point was that if one can’t even tell whether something was ruined, or not, by looking at it, one has a lot shakier ground to stand on, in that outrage. 

I still think that deliberately manufacturing holds on blank rock in order to create a route is not ok. And I still stand by my statement that it is obviously different from cleaning that happens during route development. 
You can end up creating a sidepull where there was none when you pry off a loose flake, and you should pry off loose flakes if you are bolting a route, that is an acceptable part of route development. But it is not the same thing as saying, I’d like there to be a sidepull here, let me take a chisel and make one, about 2 inches deep, and with a nice thumb catch, oh, and we would need an opposing foot here, so let’s hammer one out, while we are at it.   
Billcoe · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 829

SOUNDS LIKE THE TEN SLEEP GUYS ARE LOOKING TO GET SUPPORT FOR THEIR POSITION SO THEY CAN HAVE THEIR CONGRESSPEOPLE DRAFT NEW ANTI-TOUCH A CRYSTAL LAW.

m Mobes · · MDI, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 905
Tradiban wrote: Sport climbing ethics is like a bunch of mobsters debating the most ethical way to shoot somebody in the head.

Except mobster types don't debate, they shoot each other. Sometimes they miss and shoot themselves in the foot. We have a few injuries here.


Now I really want to hear more about sculpting the best routes. Will all the pro sculpting climbers step up and let us all know their favorite ways to sculpt? Personally I'd probably use a drill bit first, then throw the chisel bit into the Bosch and jackhammer away.
North Col · · Toronto, CA · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 0
. Mobes wrote:

Except mobster types don't debate, they shoot each other. Sometimes they miss and shoot themselves in the foot. We have a few injuries here.


Now I really want to hear more about sculpting the best routes. Will all the pro sculpting climbers step up and let us all know their favorite ways to sculpt? Personally I'd probably use a drill bit first, then throw the chisel bit into the Bosch and jackhammer away.

i prefer the ol’ dynamite trick 

the schmuck · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 115
mel on wrote:

Yeah interesting point. I still have to stand firmly against it though; I don't see a way I could get behind it in one direction and not the other.

Also, it's still changing the shape of a rock to fit what they think would be a good climb. Who is authorized to create a climb that is any good? Could I come along and chip it so that it climbs differently? Would they try to modify it again once I'm done? Who is to say the climb has been chipped to perfection? Will we need route setters for rock now? You could never share beta about a climb when you don't know when's the last time someone chipped it.

Better to leave it as it is. At least, no one can point fingers for bad setting or complain that a route needs to be changed because it's awkward/not their style. It would be a disaster. 

This has happened. Someone breaks a key hold, and that someone or others glue the key hold back on. Then, an offended party not only removes the hold that was reattached, but also erases other, completely natural holds that the offended party feels are unnecessary, or just to make the route harder/less accessible. Then, someone else comes along, and...  These kinds of shenanigans were hardly unheard of during sport climbing salad days of the late 80s to early 90s. 

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,089
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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