Route Manufacturing - opinion survey for article

Climbing Magazine is going to run an article on the topic of manufactured routes. You can let your opinions be known by taking a quick survey.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/LYDZKWC?fbclid=IwAR1uT47fElvHdtuxLsxVsKfsCEP2URCNzb6sQXzahIVB1bVsC4gPXz9jiiw

Bump for an interesting thought piece, takes just a few minutes and makes you think a little.

Done

Jaren Watson wrote:

What did you find interesting about it?

I've climbed on a few manufacturered routes around Colorado Springs (old pieces cut by the US Army for trainings in the 50s or 60s) and some of them have actually been kinda fun as a result. That being said I'm not I'm not advocating for new routes to be chopped into nice sandstone, but it is an interesting relic of days past.

I dont understand that changing or modifiying the existing rock is such a no-no by most of yhe climbing community. I know nature should not be destroyed or defaced by man etc. but what harm is it really changing the rock to have a few holds?

Im guessing the trad community will take out the torches on me 

Yes mabye im being naive but why the outcry? 

Done-zo, nothing about chipping gym projects? Hmm, I guess I'm the only one???

Odd that the survey makes no mention of Via Ferrata.

kenr wrote: Odd that the survey makes no mention of Via Ferrata.

Or bigwall

Instead of chopping their bolts, we'll have to paste the mountain back together again.

kenr wrote: Odd that the survey makes no mention of Via Ferrata.

I assume this is in the context of U.S. climbing where we really don't have VFs. 

I feel this is an important discussion and I hope it can stay civil and on topic (unlike the thread that likely spurred this survey.) 

Thanks for the link.

Manufacturing your own route, permanently, on natural rock is offensive because it introduces unnatural features to the character of the climb and the rock, and there is ample opportunity for people to satisfy their "routesetting" desire by keeping it to their local climbing gyms which are popping up like chain restaurants. Climbing outdoors has a different character and it should be kept that way.

North Col wrote: I dont understand that changing or modifiying the existing rock is such a no-no by most of yhe climbing community. I know nature should not be destroyed or defaced by man etc. but what harm is it really changing the rock to have a few holds?

Im guessing the trad community will take out the torches on me

Yes mabye im being naive but why the outcry? 

By permanently changing the rock you are permanently removing the opportunity for everyone to climb it in its natural state, and if you just aren't strong enough is pretty selfish to remove that opportunity from anyone who is. Most people I think will agree that climbing on natural features is better than a manufactured route, and instead of saying you need to improve yourself to do the climb, you change the climb to your level

Setting aside my opinion of manufacturing routes, here is a thought experiment:

Suppose we took a 1000 MP users and put them on a 100 climbs in Tensleep, picking a selection of routes from completely unaltered, to aggressively cleaned/comfirtized, to full on manufactured. And we don’t tell them anything about these routes. How many people will spontaneously notice that some of these routes are manufactured?

Suppose we take another 1000 people, put them on the same 100 climbs, and tell them that some holds are manufactured, and it is their job to correctly identify the manufactured holds. How many people do you think will correctly identify manufactured holds, and not make any mistakes?

My opinion: not many.

I wonder about this, because in the Tensleep thread someone specifically called out a specific route of Huey, Joy of Herecy at the Ark, as an example of manufactured route, because how else would you get those two perfect deep 1 inch mono pockets?

Now, I, as well as every person who climbed that route, I’m prettt sure, will know which mono pockets the poster referred to. And I, as well as many people, I’m sure, have gotten to those Monos and thought: must be drilled. Couldn’t possibly be natural!

BUT: people who know a lot more about the limestone than I do tell me that those two pockets are NOT drilled. They are the perfect reverse fossils. And you can supposedly tell if you feel the texture inside, which doesn’t feel like drill marks. 

Short of Huey coming here and telling us, under oath, whether he has, or hasn’t, done anything to those mono pockets, if you have a dozen experienced climbers who can’t immediately tell
If a hold is manufactured or not, do you want to bet that most people who are outraged about hold manufacturing in Tensleep, without ever having set a foot in Tensleep, would actually not be able to tell?

Lena chita wrote: If a hold is manufactured or not, do you want to bet that most people who are outraged about hold manufacturing in Tensleep, without ever having set a foot in Tensleep, would actually not be able to tell?

You are completely missing the point.

Sloppy Second wrote:

You are completely missing the point.

No, I am not, which is why I started by saying that I’m going to set aside my opinion or hold manufacturing for this question. 

Here is the thing. If you ever climbed limestone or volcanic tuff, you have climbed routes that were at least to a degree manufactured and/or enhanced. It's just that if it's skillfully done it isn't all that noticeable. 

Sloppy Second wrote:
You are completely missing the point.

Lena chita wrote: 

No, I am not, which is why I started by saying that I’m going to set aside my opinion or hold manufacturing for this question. 

Ignoring that you said you'd set aside your opinion and then explicitly stated in your post "My opinion: not many" (and even though the two opinions refer to different things, opinion of manufacturing holds vs. opinion of whether people would noticing manufactured holds, your opinion about one is informed by your opinion about the other and thus, is a stated opinion) 

You're missing the point in your "If a hold is manufactured or not, do you want to bet that most people who are outraged about hold manufacturing in Tensleep, without ever having set a foot in Tensleep, would actually not be able to tell?" statement because you switch the argument over to whether one realizes the manufacturing takes place instead of the actual point which is the ethical and moral perception of manufacturing itself. You created a typical strawman argument and got pissed when you were called out. Here's a fun thought experiment for you:  Let's say that a thread is started regarding whether it is right to kill people. You come on and (without stating your opinion about killing of course) say what if a person kills a bunch of homeless people throughout the country and nobody notices? Did you miss the point of whether killing is right or wrong? I'll let you answer it. Hint: the answer is yes. Now with manufacturing holds, this is in line with Messner's "killing the impossible" which is a high level conceptual argument based upon thinking abstractly. Just because nobody would notice that the impossible has been killed, that doesn't have any relation to right or wrong of that killing.

Troy . wrote: Is it okay to chip holds off thought? :)

Only as a thought experiment. ;)

It's not rocket science, it's just a dick thing to do even without invoking Messner.

kevin deweese wrote:

You created a typical strawman argument and got pissed when you were called out. 

I think you are inferring my emotional state from your own. I’m not pissed at anyone. I didn’t think this needed to be restated, but here you go, just for you:

1) manufacturing holds is wrong
2) there is a difference between comfortizing the edge/cleaning an existing hold, and drilling/chipping a new hold in a blank wall, and this difference is not subtle. 

Having said that, I still think that most people who take the strongest absolutist stance on not altering the rock ever have no idea that they are climbing/enjoying the rock that had been altered in the way they profess to abhor. 

I feel like natural rock routes are a limited resource; there are a finite amount of them. And manufacturing a route outdoors necessarily means destroying—or removing if destroying is too extreme for you—a natural route.

Yes, artificial routes can climb pretty damn well, often better than outdoor routes. I think the gym climbing I do has actually made places with similar movement, like red rocks, less exciting to me, because people are good at creating fun movement.

But I at least don’t climb outside to feel safe, or have the guarantee that the next route I jump on will have beautiful flowing movement. I go outside to be challenged by the natural world. If it happens that I connect with the movement, then that connection is made all the more powerful because it was random chance. And if the route turns out to be a pile, well, at least if was different from all the indoor stuff I usually climb on.

I’m not saying there isn’t beauty and art in creating and climbing a route on an otherwise natural cliff.
But I am saying that the creating of artificial routes on natural cliffs necessarily results in the destruction of a limited public resource.