New and experienced climbers over 50, #3

Lori Milas wrote: ... does anyone ever actually use more than one or two?

Yes. 

I hadn't practiced a munter in eons.  Did one day before yesterday on the tail end of ropes that someone else was rapping, no load on the rope unless I tripped while downclimbing a 5 foot section on the middle pitch to the next set of rap anchors.  If I had loaded it the effect would have been the same as a firemans belay, the rapper would have stopped, but had I needed to load the rope it would have prevented me from taking a 100ft fall.  It took me three tries to get the knot tied correctly.  I need more practice.

rgold wrote: One knot you don't need under any circumstances:  that in-line figure eight, first photo.

Isn't Lori's first photo a figure 8 tie in with a Yosemite Finish?

rgold wrote: One knot you don't need under any circumstances:  that in-line figure eight, first photo.

Excellent list.  I was a little confused by the photo and term "in line figure eight".  I was equating it to the overhand figure eight.  But the exit ropes would go in the same direction, not in different directions.  So Rgold I have a question, this comes form a novice wishing to learn.  You have a simple overhand, double rope at the end, seems to be acceptable, then if you add another twist to it you have an overhand figure eight.  Both ends of the rope go in the same direction, but it looks a lot like the follow through figure 8 we use for a primary climbers knot through the belt.  

Is this an acceptable knot?  Would it be plausible to clip it to your belay loop for a lead cimb/lowering?  I know this is not an accepted practice, but would it be unsafe?

Señor Arroz wrote:

Isn't Lori's first photo a figure 8 tie in with a Yosemite Finish?

I had an AMGA guide caution me about the Yosemite Finish.  He told me that when done correctly it was excellent, but there was a way to do it incorrectly that would allow the knot to roll under load.  I should have paid more attention to the detail, but at the time is was enough to discourage me from doing the Yosemite finish and just leave enough tag to tie a stopper knot.  

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

Another anchor for a flat summit  with bolts directly on the flat summit three pitch climb today combo  bowling on a bite and rabbit ears! Belay needed to be extended! No slings just two draws I was out of singles 

Jeffrey this looks like the work of a serial killer.   

Lori Milas wrote:

I'm wondering if this is the same event that Brittany Griffith just posted pictures from.  "24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell. It’s the most difficult, and most rewarding, climbing event I’ve ever participated in. " Thanks for sharing this Richard!  

Yes, Brittany was there for Patagonia serving healthy food.  She did compete several times in previous Hells.   300 climbers going ball out for 24 hours.   Tommy Caldwell has done it twice, Honnold twice, Sonny Trotter twice, plus Nik Berry, Mason Earl, and more.    Tough to get in since it is so popular.  If you haven't done it before you need to enter a lottery to get in.  Once in, you can pre-qualify by achieving certain benchmarks.    Serious type 2 fun.  

rgold wrote:

Everyone has their favorite collection and will raise a hue and cry if one of their knots don't make some other list.  So, bracing myself for the inevitable outcry, here's what I would consider a  minimal list.  (I kinda like knots and know many more than what's listed here, but I'm trying to exercise restraint.)

• Figure-eight tie-in of course.
• EDK for joining rappel ropes.
• Barrel knot (half of double fisherman's) for installing stopper knots on rappel and top-rope rope ends.
• Autoblock for rappel third hand.
• Double fisherman's (second photo) for joining ropes and webbing.  
• Clove hitch for rigging anchors.
• Overhand loop for making loops in ropes.  (But butterfly loop is better if the loop is going to be loaded a lot.)
• Girth hitch for attaching slings and tethers to harness.
• Munter hitch and mule finish (munter mule) for getting out of all kinds of trouble.
• Prusik knot for ascending ropes.

One knot you don't need under any circumstances:  that in-line figure eight, first photo.

I love waking up with a laugh. I never saw such engagement until the subject of knots and anchors came up.  What about FEELINGS?    

But seriously. I just get more overwhelmed and perplexed by the day.  If you actually use these knots regularly, then this is a very different sport than I ever imagined.  How will I ever learn all this?    

Here's the list I was given as homework (from Bob Gaines).  I'm  not sure where this list does and does not converge with yours rgold... but I'm guessing if I could learn half these knots it would be a big step forward.

1) Figure Eight Follow-through (the one you said you would never need.... maybe I made it wrong?) Bob says it's one sport climbers use to make the knot easier to untie after hanging or falling. So, by the way, since I hang or fall alot indoors... why not do this so I can untie the damned knot when I get so tired?
2) Bowline  with fisherman's backup
3) BHK (Big Honking knot).  overhand knot tied on a doubled bight.  (I'm having a problem with this one, I don't know why.)
4) Double-Loop Figure Eight
5) Double-Loop Bowline
6) Double and Triple Fisherman's Knot  (this is the one that concerns me... it doesn't look trustworthy to me, so I'm going to check mine out with someone. I don't see how it doesn't fail.)
7) Flat Overhand (Euro Death Knot) for joining rappel knots.
8) Clove Hitch
9) Munter Hitch
10) Mule Knot
11) Prusik Knot
12) Klemheist Knot

I realize we haven't even gotten to the anchors yet.  When do we climb?  

Totally not related: I went to visit my son and family yesterday.  Now when I'm feeling punk I crave that fresh air and hit of children and drive up to 6500 feet.  The air has changed. Cold, near freezing, wind, clouds... dark even at noon and feels like snow.  Kids out playing in shirtsleeves.  My son and wife looking thoughtful.  Squirrels almost done with their scampering--things are suddenly still.  Firewood stacked high. Apparently a neighbor who doesn't understand 20 feet of snow has built his cabin with door opening outward, is about to learn a hard lesson.  I'm a desert creature, but I'm starting to understand these mountain people.  What a total blessing.

Señor Arroz wrote:

Isn't Lori's first photo a figure 8 tie in with a Yosemite Finish?

No.  http://knots3d.com/knots/en_us/84/in-line-figure-8-loop 

EDIT: Actually, yes

rgold wrote:

Everyone has their favorite collection and will raise a hue and cry if one of their knots don't make some other list.  So, bracing myself for the inevitable outcry, here's what I would consider a  minimal list.  (I kinda like knots and know many more than what's listed here, but I'm trying to exercise restraint.)

• Figure-eight tie-in of course.
• EDK for joining rappel ropes.
• Barrel knot (half of double fisherman's) for installing stopper knots on rappel and top-rope rope ends.
• Autoblock for rappel third hand.
• Double fisherman's (second photo) for joining ropes and webbing.  
• Clove hitch for rigging anchors.
• Overhand loop for making loops in ropes.  (But butterfly loop is better if the loop is going to be loaded a lot.)
• Girth hitch for attaching slings and tethers to harness.
• Munter hitch and mule finish (munter mule) for getting out of all kinds of trouble.
• Prusik knot for ascending ropes.

One knot you don't need under any circumstances:  that in-line figure eight, first photo.

I would add a bunny ears and this, a 'step through girth hitch'. I love this 'trick, use whenever there are 3 on a line. 

I dismissed the bunny ears for a while, until i found i was using it often.
It's the old adage, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice practice practice.
Not sure if it was mentioned, but i love using the munter mule when i am on a deep ledge and want to be able to see my follower. Uber adjustable, strong, fast, easy to untie.
The one trick i can't seem to get, how to keep 3 ropes at a station turning into spaghetti. ugh.

Lori Milas wrote:Here's the list I was given as homework (from Bob Gaines).  I'm  not sure where this list does and does not converge with yours rgold... but I'm guessing if I could learn half these knots it would be a big step forward.1) Figure Eight Follow-through (the one you said you would never need.... maybe I made it wrong?) Bob says it's one sport climbers use to make the knot easier to untie after hanging or falling. So, by the way, since I hang or fall alot indoors... why not do this so I can untie the damned knot when I get so tired?

This is what I called the figure 8 tie-in.  That is not what you have in your picture, so yes, you made it wrong.  EDIT: No, I'm wrong.  It is a figure-8 with an extra tuck and is basically fine.

2) Bowline  with fisherman's backup

I said I was restraining myself so I left this out.  I'm not going to restart the kerfluffle about tying in with bowlines, but this has some use for rigging top-rope anchors.

3) BHK (Big Honking knot).  overhand knot tied on a doubled bight.  (I'm having a problem with this one, I don't know why.
4) Double-Loop Figure Eight
5) Double-Loop Bowline

None of these belong on a minimal list in my opinion.

6) Double and Triple Fisherman's Knot  (this is the one that concerns me... it doesn't look trustworthy to me, so I'm going to check mine out with someone. I don't see how it doesn't fail.)

Get them right!

7) Flat Overhand (Euro Death Knot) for joining rappel knots.
8) Clove Hitch
9) Munter Hitch
10) Mule Knot
11) Prusik Knot

These were all on my list.

12) Klemheist Knot

I left it off the minimal list because the Prusik was already there.  In any case, the Klemheist is inferior to the Heddon knot (which is an upside-down Klemheist), but in spite of various confirming tests over the years, the Klemheist seems to have endured.

I realize we haven't even gotten to the anchors yet.  When do we climb?  

Trad climbing involves a lot more than...climbing.

I think most of us didn't learn these knots out of context from a book.  In some sense, we already needed the knot when we learned it, and it is its applicability that made it easy to remember.  

And remember I was trying for a minimal list, meaning something that would get you through almost all climbing situations.  Some knots not on the list are a little better than the adaptations one makes with the minimal list, but you can do without those additional knots without compromising safety or efficiency.

Lori - my 1st thought when I saw the length of Rich’s list was that’s a lot of knots! But then reading it, it was like check check check.... I use all of these frequently if not every outing. The only one that I don’t use frequently and therefore have to intentionally practice is the MMO (Munter mule overhand) for the potential oh shit scenario (escaping belays etc).

Learning a bunch of knots is great, but it seems odd to me to learn climbing skills in unrelated blocks. Others may differ, but I learn better when skills have a context, so I learned the knots as I needed them and could apply them, not all at once. Otherwise it just seems like random trivia. When you learn how to build anchors, that’s a great time to work on all the different knots that could be associated with that, take a self rescue course and you will get lots of practice tying MMO knots, etc.

Edit to add: Rich beat me to it on the context part!

Oh good lord. I can only imagine the knots here. 

ErikaNW wrote: Lori - my 1st thought when I saw the length of Rich’s list was that’s a lot of knots! But then reading it, it was like check check check.... I use all of these frequently if not every outing. The only one that I don’t use frequently and therefore have to intentionally practice is the MMO (Munter mule overhand) for the potential oh shit scenario (escaping belays etc).

Learning a bunch of knots is great, but it seems odd to me to learn climbing skills in unrelated blocks. Others may differ, but I learn better when skills have a context, so I learned the knots as I needed them and could apply them, not all at once. Otherwise it just seems like random trivia. When you learn how to build anchors, that’s a great time to work on all the different knots that could be associated with that, take a self rescue course and you will get lots of practice tying MMO knots, etc.

Edit to add: Rich beat me to it on the context part!

Hey Erica, since I’m making a big deal about learning knots and anchors I want to add this: learning from a book (or YouTube or wherever) is terribly counterintuitive for me, too. I’d rather be learning by doing. This seems odd, sitting in my living room making knots.  Thank you also for your suggestions...those classes are coming soon. 

But what I’ve discovered, largely as a result of this thread, is that trad climbing is for the few...those who can get outdoors day after day, year after year, and learn and do on the rock. Gym climbers won’t ever learn this, and from what I can see sport climbers won’t either. 
I doubt I’ll get far with this. Even if I got out monthly with a serious guide, it wouldn’t be enough. But this was Bob’s suggestion for me as some homework “in the meantime “.  Learn these knots on my own time so I’m not taking precious training time (and money) on the ground learning basics. It’s basically what Ryan (coach) has said as well...do some homework first.
After all this time I don’t know how I would advise another late-starter who wanted to outdoor climb with basically no skills and no solid partners (yet). Probably I’d tell them to stick with the gym. All I can do here is work with the tools I have, see if any of it comes together, and if not I can at least have had a good time trying.
On a more positive note: little by little I’ve made real progress towards climbing goals. I do believe it is unfolding...

rgold wrote:

Everyone has their favorite collection and will raise a hue and cry if one of their knots don't make some other list.  So, bracing myself for the inevitable outcry, here's what I would consider a  minimal list.  (I kinda like knots and know many more than what's listed here, but I'm trying to exercise restraint.)

• Figure-eight tie-in of course.
• EDK for joining rappel ropes.
• Barrel knot (half of double fisherman's) for installing stopper knots on rappel and top-rope rope ends.
• Autoblock for rappel third hand.
• Double fisherman's (second photo) for joining ropes and webbing.  
• Clove hitch for rigging anchors.
• Overhand loop for making loops in ropes.  (But butterfly loop is better if the loop is going to be loaded a lot.)
• Girth hitch for attaching slings and tethers to harness.
• Munter hitch and mule finish (munter mule) for getting out of all kinds of trouble.
• Prusik knot for ascending ropes.

Yes to this list!

Also, I use a Bowline knot for setting up top rope anchors around trees.

I still haven't figured out the Trucker's Hitch! Those moves! Bahahahahaha!  

Have a great weekend all!

​Trucker's Hitch​​​ Video

Lori Milas wrote:

This seems odd, sitting in my living room making knots.  

And here I  thought it was normal behavior.  

Success is where preparation meets opportunity.  Keep practicing and looking for the opportunity, it will happen.

Lovena Harwood wrote: I still haven't figured out the Trucker's Hitch! Those moves! Bahahahahaha!  

​Truckers Knot Song​​​

I love it, I use the truckers hitch all the time to tie stuff down, but my moves aren't nearly that involved. 

Lori Milas wrote:

Gym climbers won’t ever learn this, and from what I can see sport climbers won’t either. 

A few months ago I was setting up my rappel and I dropped my ATC on a multi pitch sport route. The munter knot saved me. I was doing exactly what you are doing now just weeks prior to that happening to me learning different knots wondering if I would ever actually use them. I have now used almost every single knot on the list they have shown above.

Tom Hickmann wrote:

A few months ago I was setting up my rappel and I dropped my ATC on a multi pitch sport route. The munter knot saved me. 

Even if you didn't know the Munter, there are alternatives for that situation:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/113386056/dropped-your-atc-here-are-some-options

Rgold, I'm pretty sure what you're seeing as in-line is really just Lori's figure-8 tie in knot with the tail tucked back in as a "Yosemite finish" but tucked really long. Lori, does the rope end just out of frame where the arrow is on this?