New and experienced climbers over 50, #3

Nivel Egres wrote:

Dude, we want to see Grampians bouldering, not plastic :) 

Ha ha so do I! 

wendy weiss wrote: Since we've been talking about things that can go wrong if you have (even a momentary) lapse of attention, I'll throw in a warning about the mistake that everyone thinks they could never make because "I COULDN'T BE THAT STUPID," which is thinking you're clipped into the autobelay when you're not. Yes you could. Not only have people been seriously injured and killed doing this, but if you talk to gym climbers about it, a surprisingly large number will tell you that they've done it and been lucky enough to realize -- or have someone else spot -- their mistake in time.

Just want to put that out there.

Been there, done that!!  Spinal cord injury (central cord syndrome) with a plate now holding my vertebrae together.   It has been a long slow attempt to rehab and am stuck with chronic pain and limited strength in my forearms.     I was working an 11+ after 1.5 hours of autobelay work on 10's and 11's.  Stopped for a drink, walked back and started up.  Fell at the crux 30 feet up.   (no triangle to prevent this, just sandbags that hold the autobelay away from the wall so people can boulder and traverse).   4 years ago almost and I have regained quite a lot.   In my 60's my norm was to onsight most 5.10s and a few 5.11s and redpointed 2 12s.   Now I work 9's and my best is 10b.  But, I am also 69.     Have a friend that had the same fall but came down feet first (I landed on my back) and she fractured her pelvis and had one lower leg amputated.   Be careful out there!!!!!   I have since found many, including the gym manager, that made the same mistake but realized it and down climbed.  

But I now work more endurance and yesterday I climbed 50 pitches, all 5.9, in 8 hours.  Not too bad for a senior citizen.  (getting ready for the 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell)

thedogfather Dower wrote:

Been there, done that!!  Spinal cord injury (central cord syndrome) with a plate now holding my vertebrae together.   It has been a long slow attempt to rehab and am stuck with chronic pain and limited strength in my forearms.     I was working an 11+ after 1.5 hours of autobelay work on 10's and 11's.  Stopped for a drink, walked back and started up.  Fell at the crux 30 feet up.   (no triangle to prevent this, just sandbags that hold the autobelay away from the wall so people can boulder and traverse).   4 years ago almost and I have regained quite a lot.   In my 60's my norm was to onsight most 5.10s and a few 5.11s and redpointed 2 12s.   Now I work 9's and my best is 10b.  But, I am also 69.     Have a friend that had the same fall but came down feet first (I landed on my back) and she fractured her pelvis and had one lower leg amputated.   Be careful out there!!!!!   I have since found many, including the gym manager, that made the same mistake but realized it and down climbed.  

But I now work more endurance and yesterday I climbed 50 pitches, all 5.9, in 8 hours.  Not too bad for a senior citizen.  (getting ready for the 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell)

Oh, man! It hurts just to read your story. I’m so sorry! 

I want to make sure I understand what happened. Did the autobelay fail or did you tie in to the wrong ropes? In our gym it would be hard to mix up the two. So wonderful that you are working so hard at recovery and making such progress. Very sad lesson to have to learn at this stage of life. Thanks so much for sharing. 

Not a crack climb but still fun on this steep slab at “The Dome” in Pawtuckaway State Park. We had the crag all to ourselves!

thedogfather Dower wrote:

Been there, done that!!  Spinal cord injury (central cord syndrome) with a plate now holding my vertebrae together.   It has been a long slow attempt to rehab and am stuck with chronic pain and limited strength in my forearms.     I was working an 11+ after 1.5 hours of autobelay work on 10's and 11's.  Stopped for a drink, walked back and started up.  Fell at the crux 30 feet up.   (no triangle to prevent this, just sandbags that hold the autobelay away from the wall so people can boulder and traverse).   4 years ago almost and I have regained quite a lot.   In my 60's my norm was to onsight most 5.10s and a few 5.11s and redpointed 2 12s.   Now I work 9's and my best is 10b.  But, I am also 69.     Have a friend that had the same fall but came down feet first (I landed on my back) and she fractured her pelvis and had one lower leg amputated.   Be careful out there!!!!!   I have since found many, including the gym manager, that made the same mistake but realized it and down climbed.  

But I now work more endurance and yesterday I climbed 50 pitches, all 5.9, in 8 hours.  Not too bad for a senior citizen.  (getting ready for the 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell)

Have also done that. Came in one morning before work to get a few laps in. Was a bit woozy from a party the night before. Kind of got tunnel vision. Onsighted (unwittingly soloed) a 10+ and jumped off the top. Grabbed a rope on the way down and cut up my hand. But... that slowed me down enough that I walked away with nothing worse than a very sore (for two weeks) back. Lucky as hell...

Lori Milas wrote: With some time to kill... I'm relooking at Double Cross.  Is this how you all use beta?  Does anyone study pictures before or after a climb?  I wanted to know where it went wrong before, and what I could do to improve this time.  Body positioning... right arm/left arm, but I think it might come down to basic strength and just plain experience?  Side by side...  Nelson showing me how to do it, me giving it a go.  I can still hear him saying "Take a smaller step up." "Stand up on that left leg!"  (trying! )  I can see that he got right up on his left leg and into that crack... no dawdling.     (I finished the climb, but it felt pitiful.    )  Lovena, you would nail this crack climb on the first go!  

Here's my two-bit analysis.

Looking at images 1 and 4, the most glaring error is  the huge step when an intermediate step---at the level of Lori's knee---is apparently possible.  The big step makes everything more strenuous and opens the door for other technical issues.  I think this is an outdoor beginner error that is reinforced by gym climbing, in which setters continually force climbers to take high steps and then teeter on one foot.

I think the strain of the high step led to the next issue, which is not standing all the way up on the left foot. This appears to be aggravated by not getting a good smear with the right foot.  Again, this is something trained by much of gym route-setting, which doesn't leave anything at the same level for the trailing foot after a step-up.  Another aspect of gym climbing that can interfere with optimal outdoor technique is that gym walls are usually steep, making it impossible, or at least inadvisable, to climb past a shoulder-level placement for the hands.  But once you get outside on rock less than vertical, it is conceivable to move up until the hands are at waist level.  It often happens that the low final hand position corresponds to the most balanced and least strenuous stance, so that interrupting the upward motion when the hands reach shoulder level leaves the climber in a strenuous position, possibly out of reach of better holds.  When I was guiding many years ago, I found this "making only half the move" to be a common issue, and that was before folks had gyms to introduce or reinforce bad habits.  Moving past hands at shoulder level requires trusting and weighting the feet and balancing on them, and it takes some practice and experience to recognize when this is possible and called-for.

The next issue is a crack-climbing issue, and without being able to see into the crack, it is hard to judge.  But with the body hanging to the right of the crack, it is going to be a lot easier to get a hand jam with the left hand.  Working the hands up in layback position will keep the body away from that jam, and will introduce increasing core strain to prevent barn-dooring, which is what seems to be happening.  The guide has stood fully up on the left foot, got a good smear with the right foot to keep from staying in full layback mode,  kept the hands low rather than advancing them up the crack, and then, well-balanced and not appearing to be strained, reached up for a left hand jam.

What is interesting about these technical refinements is that all of them make the moves less strenuous.  The climber who hasn't learned to deploy such niceties experiences the route as being very strenuous, concludes that those who are doing it with more ease are simply a lot stronger, and sets out to gain strength as the solution.  Strength is like money---it never hurts to have more of it---but it isn't the answer to every question posed by the rock.

Nice day out, put up a new route it was cold and windy Fall has arrived. Undercling the roof to a nice Layback to the steep face. PUMPY!

Rgold what a timely and perfect response. In 2 hours I will be staring at that route again, maybe not to climb it today, but hopefully one day this week. I got pretty sick just before I came and it’s 97 degrees outside but I have learned to chuck expectations...anything could happen.

I cannot figure out how to copy and paste the YouTube video here with my cellphone so you could see how right you are in your assessment . (Called “Lori and Nelson on Double Cross at Joshua Tree”)  Edit:  Figured it out.  This is a 4 min video of Nelson coaching me on how to get up this crack.  My friend videoed while I belayed, in June of this year.  

It’s been a bit embarrassing to post so much beginners stuff here on this site amongst pros with obvious blunders. But it’s helped to make a much faster learning curve.

THANK YOU for pointing out that some of the technical errors are a result of training in the climbing gym! Everything you said is true!   Now if I can absorb the information here and by viewing the videos...and then get out there and apply that on the route...it will have been a really good learning experience.  This is only a 5.7 crack! I have all week to play on it (and others) But I’d really like to feel like I’m capable of grasping the technique and getting up the route with some finesse.

Lori Milas wrote:

Oh, man! It hurts just to read your story. I’m so sorry! 

I want to make sure I understand what happened. Did the autobelay fail or did you tie in to the wrong ropes? In our gym it would be hard to mix up the two. So wonderful that you are working so hard at recovery and making such progress. Very sad lesson to have to learn at this stage of life. Thanks so much for sharing. 

The gym does not have the triangle that prevents not clipping in.  They have sand bags that the auto connects to and they are away from the wall.  There is nothing on the wall that lets you know you are not clipped in.  I had stopped for some water after working the route and when I went back, I neglected to clip in.   So, I was free soloing a 5.11+ and blew the crux which had my right foot almost even with my hands.   When my hand couldn't hold the crux pinch I fell horizontal and landed on my back.

Jeff, just wanted to say thanks for all the energy you put into creating and maintaining routes in the LA area.

Lori Milas wrote: Rgold what a timely and perfect response. 

+1

It’s been a bit embarrassing to post so much beginners stuff here ...

Remember back in grade school when the teacher said there is no such thing as a stupid question.  I actually believed it.  So I have been asking stupid embarrassing questions my whole life. I'll even put out an error in judgment for comment.  As long as there are people like Rgold out there who will take the time to explain things I gain something of value each time I do this. I learned that there are others who have the same question but are too shy to ask.  But once the question is asked and answered in an honest non-judgmental manner everyone benefits.

 I am also pretty self confident, so people making fun of me don't hurt much.  I will listen to what they have to say trying to glean some value to it, but sometimes people are just hurtful, these I ignore.

thedogfather Dower wrote:

The gym does not have the triangle that prevents not clipping in.  They have sand bags that the auto connects to and they are away from the wall.  There is nothing on the wall that lets you know you are not clipped in.  I had stopped for some water after working the route and when I went back, I neglected to clip in.   So, I was free soloing a 5.11+ and blew the crux which had my right foot almost even with my hands.   When my hand couldn't hold the crux pinch I fell horizontal and landed on my back.

There were three similar serious accidents (that I know of) at my gym, one of which resulted in death. One of the others was my husband, who landed feet first, shattered a bunch of bones, and almost lost his lower leg to infections. Five years later his leg still hasn't completely healed and probably never will. He's stopped climbing, though he still comes to the gym to belay me. I was pretty critical of his absent-mindedness until a few months after his fall when I was three or four moves off the ground on a route and one of the staff smilingly asked me if I was intending to free solo it. That quickly adjusted my attitude. Anyway, I'm now the person who's always clipping the triangles back into place.    

This gives me some insight into why some gyms don't have autobelays because they're "too dangerous." I always had a hard time imagining the technology failing badly. But having a technology that people forget to use is a pretty bad failure.

I had a really really lovely day today. It was an educational day with new teaching...all I had to do was try to be brave.  This was my first 10a in J Tree—not sure I believe that rating but I’ll tske it.

What I wanted to say is that something has changed: I never got winded and I never felt tired. I could have kept right on climbing a few more hours. So maybe this lap thing really helps with endurance. 

What's that climb? 

wendy weiss wrote:

.... One of the others was my husband, who landed feet first, shattered a bunch of bones, and almost lost his lower leg to infections. Five years later his leg still hasn't completely healed and probably never will. He's stopped climbing, ...

I am so sorry you and your husband had this tragedy.  Barbara and I should never have taken up climbing at our advanced age, yet we have.  As a result we guard against such injuries with prejudice.  I am very happy that he still supports your efforts by belaying for you.  He's a keeper.

Señor Arroz wrote: This gives me some insight into why some gyms don't have autobelays because they're "too dangerous." I always had a hard time imagining the technology failing badly. But having a technology that people forget to use is a pretty bad failure.

As I recall, years ago a belay device failed and dropped someone and my gym (BRC) took them all down. Some time later the BRC got its current autobelays from a different manufacturer. There haven't been any problems with them that I'm aware of and they're taken down and sent back periodically for "recertification," whatever that means.

Dallas R wrote:

I am so sorry you and your husband had this tragedy.  Barbara and I should never have taken up climbing at our advanced age, yet we have.  As a result we guard against such injuries with prejudice.  I am very happy that he still supports your efforts by belaying for you.  He's a keeper.

He is that. And we got in 43 years of climbing together (less time out for shoulder surgeries, cracked ribs, etc.) before the accident.

wendy weiss wrote:

There were three similar serious accidents (that I know of) at my gym, one of which resulted in death. One of the others was my husband, who landed feet first, shattered a bunch of bones, and almost lost his lower leg to infections. Five years later his leg still hasn't completely healed and probably never will. He's stopped climbing, though he still comes to the gym to belay me. I was pretty critical of his absent-mindedness until a few months after his fall when I was three or four moves off the ground on a route and one of the staff smilingly asked me if I was intending to free solo it. That quickly adjusted my attitude. Anyway, I'm now the person who's always clipping the triangles back into place.    

What are these triangles you're all talking about?  Is it a ground attachment?  We don't have auto belays at my gym, the belayer belays as normal but is anchored to the ground.

wendy weiss wrote:

As I recall, years ago a belay device failed and dropped someone and my gym (BRC) took them all down. Some time later the BRC got its current autobelays from a different manufacturer. There haven't been any problems with them that I'm aware of and they're taken down and sent back periodically for "recertification," whatever that means.

That happened to my friend at BRC and I think might be the incident you’re talking about. It didn’t hold her on the lower and she basically free fell - although there must have been some friction in the system that slowed her a bit. Maybe this happened to several people - I think there was a recall involved with the equipment but I’m not sure. I have a hard time trusting them. I climb at ET and they don’t have autobelays which upsets a lot of people. Really sorry that happened to your husband.