New and Experienced Climbers over 50

I believe in long apprenticeships - just go out and play in the mountains, don't look too often in the mirror, and don't worry about labels, your own or what people pin on you. One day return to where you began your journey - then decide. But make it a long time before you return.

Make sure to return - many people do not.

Lori, what you describe is following, even if on a mere single pitch, far as I'm concerned. Others get in a flap about this stuff, but so what? Belay from an anchor Nelson builds on a multi, tear down and follow? Totally legit, and just what people mean when they advise that as a way to really understand gear placements.

Some "sport" climbs take gear well, or even beg some gear placements. Placing gear from the ground and weighting it can help train your eyes to see, but isn't much fun, IMO.

I think you are better than you think you are, and more than ready to stretch your wings. Enjoy, kid!

Oh, and that 5.10c to lead in a gym? Horse hockey. Think of all the really capable climbers who have decades of experience, but no longer climb harder grades. They are hardly incapable of leading or giving a belay. Make some noise at the gym, or ask around. YMMV, and everyplace I've climbed, here, once they know me, has been willing to let me test on something less than some arbitrary number that only measures climbing prowess, not safety. Your indoor coach may be momming you.

Outside? Really eyeball the routes, hard. Easy is not synonymous with beginner, nor "safe" (which is all relative, anyway).

Best, Helen

Lori Milas wrote:

I know some bowlers who could hurt someone.  They think of a bowling ball more as a shot put.    

Wendy... I'm not sure where I am along the continuum.  What is it when Nelson leads  the way up (while I belay from ground),  sets anchors, then top ropes me up, and along the way I remove the pro and put it on my sling?   Kinda sorta beginning to learn?  

Enough people have now said "learn to sport climb" that I'm guessing it is important.  I think we talked about, in my gym, the requirement is an 'easy 10c'.  My climbing coach there said "Really... it should be comfortable in the 11's."  So... that might take awhile.    

I think if you're removing the pro, you're getting the benefits I was thinking of. But I'm not sure I understand what Nelson is doing. Is he top-roping you on a separate rope? If so, I don't understand why he top ropes you instead of just having you second.

At my gym, the requirement for lead certification is leading a 5.8 or 5.9 route. Seems to work.

And, btw, not so lovely. Adding "going all Constine" to my vocabulary.

wendy weiss wrote:

I think if you're removing the pro, you're getting the benefits I was thinking of. But I'm not sure I understand what Nelson is doing. Is he top-roping you on a separate rope? If so, I don't understand why he top ropes you instead of just having you second.

At my gym, the requirement for lead certification is leading a 5.8 or 5.9 route. Seems to work. 

He's belaying her from the top. Which is having her "second."

Re. gym cert. I think a lot of gyms require that you be able to lead a 5.10b or c just because, frankly, there aren't a ton of lead routes set easier than that. Also, gym routes that are 5.7, 5.8 tend to have big jugs sticking out of the wall that are real hazards for a falling leader in a way that a slightly overhanging 5.10c doesn't have an issue.

My gym requires people to test on a .10b. I think that's reasonable. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

He's belaying her from the top. Which is having her "second."

Re. gym cert. I think a lot of gyms require that you be able to lead a 5.10b or c just because, frankly, there aren't a ton of lead routes set easier than that. Also, gym routes that are 5.7, 5.8 tend to have big jugs sticking out of the wall that are real hazards for a falling leader in a way that a slightly overhanging 5.10c doesn't have an issue.

My gym requires people to test on a .10b. I think that's reasonable. 

Senor, of the two kinds of climbers, which are you? I could guess...  And do you have a favorite place?  Could be like trying to pick a favorite child...the answer is “e”???

There’s a calm here at the gym today. I decided to be a better student but asked to hop on the 10c. And what do you know...a roof! A roof! Victory hoot...
I’m still laughing over the look of consternation when I mentioned Illusion Dweller to Nelson on last trip. Never one to be negative, always kind... but then someone has to be honest.    oh gosh that’s funny.  

I actually wasn't trying to say that there are two different "kinds" of climbers. Just that there are different kinds of expertise. So, for example, I know some really "advanced" climbers who can onsight 5.12 but know nothing about trad climbing and couldn't begin to know how to lead you up a 6 pitch climb in the Sierra.

On that axis, I'm definitely better at the wilderness skills, gear handling and navigation than I am at flashing super-hard climbs, but that's more a function of experience (lots of childhood backpacking) than it is of desire.

Lori Milas wrote:

Senor, of the two kinds of climbers, which are you? I could guess...  And do you have a favorite place?  Could be like trying to pick a favorite child...the answer is “e”???

There’s a calm here at the gym today. I decided to be a better student but asked to hop on the 10c. And what do you know...a roof! A roof! Victory hoot...
I’m still laughing over the look of consternation when I mentioned Illusion Dweller to Nelson on last trip. Never one to be negative, always kind... but then someone has to be honest.    oh gosh that’s funny.  

Lori Milas wrote:

 Wish we could set up some sort of walkie-talkie system... seriously, I'd love to hear his comments/coaching right as I'm climbing.    

Being a little older my hearing isn't what it once was.  Outside in the wind my partner and I would yell as loud as we could and still not be able to communicate.  Then we moved from outside climbing to gym climbing and found all the yelling a bit distracting, was that you saying lower, or the girl next to you.  

So I borrowed some tech from our motorcycle adventures and riveted a motorcycle blue tooth communication system to both helmets.  Now we can talk to each other in normal voices, there is never any confusion about who said what.  We can chat about placements, route finding, etc without bothering others with the yelling.  

Their only downside is they are line of sight, so if you go too far over a bench or around a column the link will drop and have to be reset.  When we are multipitching we carry radios as backup comm gear.

Dallas R wrote:

Being a little older my hearing isn't what it once was.  Outside in the wind my partner and I would yell as loud as we could and still not be able to communicate.  Then we moved from outside climbing to gym climbing and found all the yelling a bit distracting, was that you saying lower, or the girl next to you.  

So I borrowed some tech from our motorcycle adventures and riveted a motorcycle blue tooth communication system to both helmets.  Now we can talk to each other in normal voices, there is never any confusion about who said what.  We can chat about placements, route finding, etc without bothering others with the yelling.  

Their only downside is they are line of sight, so if you go too far over a bench or around a column the link will drop and have to be reset.  When we are multipitching we carry radios as backup comm gear.

Oh wow! This is the advantage of being an old person. We’re smarter!  That would be ideal for climbing.  Are you saying you only use this outdoors?

Lori Milas wrote:

... What is it when Nelson leads  the way up (while I belay from ground),  sets anchors, then top ropes me up, and along the way I remove the pro and put it on my sling?   Kinda sorta beginning to learn? ...

Enough people have now said "learn to sport climb" that I'm guessing it is important.  I think we talked about, in my gym, the requirement is an 'easy 10c'.  My climbing coach there said "Really... it should be comfortable in the 11's."  So... that might take awhile.  

Lori we also call that 'following' (as well as 'seconding') down here, you may too. You're right in saying basically you're top roping the climb (in a way).  Often, one gains confidence from this, as especially if it's a straight up (i.e. no traversing) climb you can't really fall very far, as opposed to leading and being above your gear.  Of course the thing about following is that you learn HOW the gear was placed.  When I follow, I try not to 'be on the rope' at all, in other words I don't want to be supported by the rope.  This can mean I expend a lot of energy as I stuff around taking the gear out, but the way I see it, it's all good training!  

Lori Milas wrote: I haven’t bought the Garmin yet because it seems prudent to learn the map and compass first. But soon...as a backup. Thanks for the tip on Google maps.   

I know I said the Garmin Mini looks like an excellent system.  That's still true,  but things have become complicated recently.  There are at least four devices competing in more or less the same category.  The Garmin Mini is one of them.  Let me be clear that I don't (yet) have any of these gadgets and cannot do any more then read the commentaries as can everyone else.  The bivystick looks attractive, especially if one's usage is somewhat sporadic.

The Spot X: https://www.findmespot.com/spotx/lander.php 

Spot X vs. Garmin Mini comparison at http://www.bikepacking.com/news/spot-x-and-garmin-inreach-mini/  and also (with other devices) at https://www.rei.com/blog/news/which-satellite-messenger-should-you-get 

Then there are two in late-stage Kickstarter development:

Somewhere: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/124657937/somewear-limitless-communication-built-for-adventu

Bivystick: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bivyapp/bivystick-simple-affordable-satellite-communicatio?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=satellite%20communication

Many but not all features are shared by the devices.  One of the big differences is in the subscription plans.  Here it might matter if you are going to use the device relatively frequently year-round or only, say, for a few months in the summer.

Perhaps there are others out there with more informed opinions...

rgold wrote:

I know I said the Garmin Mini looks like an excellent system.  That's still true,  but things have become complicated recently.  There are at least four devices competing in more or less the same category.  The Garmin Mini is one of them.  Let me be clear that I don't (yet) have any of these gadgets and cannot do any more then read the commentaries as can everyone else.  The bivystick looks attractive, especially if one's usage is somewhat sporadic.

The Spot X: https://www.findmespot.com/spotx/lander.php 

Spot X vs. Garmin Mini comparison at http://www.bikepacking.com/news/spot-x-and-garmin-inreach-mini/  and also (with other devices) at https://www.rei.com/blog/news/which-satellite-messenger-should-you-get 

Then there are two in late-stage Kickstarter development:

Somewhere: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/124657937/somewear-limitless-communication-built-for-adventu

Bivystick: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bivyapp/bivystick-simple-affordable-satellite-communicatio?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=satellite%20communication

Many but not all features are shared by the devices.  One of the big differences is in the subscription plans.  Here it might matter if you are going to use the device relatively frequently year-round or only, say, for a few months in the summer.

Perhaps there are others out there with more informed opinions...

This REI article is really good.

I suspect that if you're going to carry your phone anyway, the Garmin Mini paired with a smart phone is the best choice for most of us. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

This REI article is really good.

I suspect that if you're going to carry your phone anyway, the Garmin Mini paired with a smart phone is the best choice for most of us. 

I have a couple of thoughts on this:  I want a device that is not reliant upon my cell phone.  Cell phones run out of battery storage so quickly.  My daughter's phone was completely dead in 5 hours (partly because she was running the GPS), and so she spent the next 20 hours with a dead cell phone and out of range to boot.  The Garmin Explorer has 100 hours of juice, and I believe it has a backup battery you can bring along.
The larger Garmin carries its own maps, you do not have to pair it up with anything.  I talked at length to two REI guys, both liked the larger Garmin because it didn't need to be paired.
This is probably overkill for most, but I'm thinking of other uses, as a single woman.  All the places I drive that are out of cell reach for spans of time, including today into the Sierras, and long stretches of the desert.  A blowout back in the hills could leave me sitting there for a long time.  For a $10-15 bucks a month, this device could be a reliable backup in any emergency, year round. I like that it's waterproof.
The only downside I can see, besides it's cost, is that you have to learn to use it.  It has so much functionality... so there is some studying involved.

As to brand name... it appears the Garmin is so dialed in with all the resources, it leads the pack. I don't know if I have the energy to check out all the other companies.
Final thought... I took my dog to the Vet Emergency after she spent two weeks coughing non-stop and was only getting sicker. The tab was $500. (that hurt!). I woke up thinking, my health and safety is at least as important as my dog's.... go get that Garmin!

Lori Milas wrote:

Oh wow! This is the advantage of being an old person. We’re smarter!  That would be ideal for climbing.  Are you saying you only use this outdoors?

It's handy in the gym when it's crowded. Being retired we get to go to the gym on the off hours when it is not crowded, in those conditions we don't need them.  But if we stay past 3 when the school kids show up, or hit it when the after work crowd shows up, we put them on. 

Lori Milas wrote:

I have a couple of thoughts on this:  I want a device that is not reliant upon my cell phone.  Cell phones run out of battery storage so quickly.  My daughter's phone was completely dead in 5 hours (partly because she was running the GPS),

A trick I learned to help retain battery life when not in cell coverage is to put the phone into airplane mode.  Also ensure the seeking wifi and Bluetooth functions are turned off.  One of the greatest battery usages is the phone constantly trying to find a cell signal.

The Garmin mini looks like a pretty neat little device.  I looked at the Spot a few years ago.  We should probably get something, we do spend a lot of time in remote areas. I guess I am dragging my feet because back when I first started going into remote areas there were no such gizmos.  You just let friends or family know where you are going and if you are not back they would eventually go look for you.  I am more cautious than some in these situations.  I know that errors in judgement can be very uncomfortable in a good situation and fatal if things go poorly.

My wife thinks I'm silly, I always carry a lighter in my pack even though we don't smoke.    

Just so you understand exactly what "pair with a cellphone" means it doesn't mean one is reliant on the phone cellular data. The Garmin mini has the same satellite connection as the explorer+. You just pair your phone with bluetooth to the garmin to give yourself a good way to input texts into it.

I already use my phone for GPS mapping with GaiaGPS. It works great. As someone else noted, you turn OFF the Wifi and cellular antennas by putting your phone in airplane mode and it lasts a long time, days. It can also be easily charged off of a secondary battery pack and/or a solar charger for longer trips. What kills cell phone batteries FAST in the backcountry is looking for connection. Once the phone stops trying to connect to mobile data the energy consumption slows to a crawl. And, if it somehow dies, the mini Garmin can still get you a text message or an SOS rescue signal without the phone.

Ultimately, the final backup should always be a real map and a real compass. Analog.

But all your reasons for liking the Explorer+ are also valid. I wouldn't say it's the wrong choice for any reason. 

Lori Milas wrote:

I have a couple of thoughts on this:  I want a device that is not reliant upon my cell phone.  Cell phones run out of battery storage so quickly.  My daughter's phone was completely dead in 5 hours (partly because she was running the GPS), and so she spent the next 20 hours with a dead cell phone and out of range to boot.  The Garmin Explorer has 100 hours of juice, and I believe it has a backup battery you can bring along.
The larger Garmin carries its own maps, you do not have to pair it up with anything.  I talked at length to two REI guys, both liked the larger Garmin because it didn't need to be paired.
This is probably overkill for most, but I'm thinking of other uses, as a single woman.  All the places I drive that are out of cell reach for spans of time, including today into the Sierras, and long stretches of the desert.  A blowout back in the hills could leave me sitting there for a long time.  For a $10-15 bucks a month, this device could be a reliable backup in any emergency, year round. I like that it's waterproof.
The only downside I can see, besides it's cost, is that you have to learn to use it.  It has so much functionality... so there is some studying involved.

As to brand name... it appears the Garmin is so dialed in with all the resources, it leads the pack. I don't know if I have the energy to check out all the other companies.
Final thought... I took my dog to the Vet Emergency after she spent two weeks coughing non-stop and was only getting sicker. The tab was $500. (that hurt!). I woke up thinking, my health and safety is at least as important as my dog's.... go get that Garmin!

Taking a cell phone into the back country without a backup battery is like taking a desert hike with just a pint of water.

But, according to the  "Adventure Alan" site I linked above, http://www.adventurealan.com/iphone-gps-map-backpacking/, you can get 5-10 days on a single cell-phone battery charge if you manage your system right (airplane mode and screen brightness are two of the main items).  (Not to sound harsh, but your daughter did just about everything wrong to drain her phone in part of a day with no backup battery available and no map and compass for just that contingency.)  Here is his summary; he has more details on the site:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Battery life management 101

• Expect: Between 5 to 10 days of battery life in the field for an iPhone with moderate use of GPS, mapping, taking a few photos and use of electronic guides/references. And around 3-5 days with “conservative use” of GPS with an Android phone like a Samsung Galaxy (newer models like the S8 or S9 may do better but you’ll need to test to confirm this)
• Do: Put your smartphone in Airplane Mode and leave it there for the duration of your trip. For iPhones the GPS will work in Airplane Mode as of iOS 8.3.
• Do: put  your screen in auto brightness, and lower your screen brightness to the minimum amount. Screen power is the single biggest battery drain for your phone.
• Do: Shut Down all unnecessary apps especially ones like Google Maps and Facebook that use location tracking (the GPS) in the background. (See more tips below for “Battery Conservation Settings” below)
• Do: set your GPS App to only get a GPS fix when you manually request it.
• Use Tracking mode in your App with discretion. It will drain your battery about 2% to 5% per hour. Note: the current version of GAIA on the iPhone 6+ or 8+ only uses around 2% per hour. This makes it a viable tracking took for trips of 3-4 days (and even longer if you bring a good USB battery to re-charge it.)
• Good Idea: to test your personal battery use on a couple of long day hikes before taking the smartphone for navigating on a long trip.
• See more tips below for “Battery Conservation Settings” below

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The main reason to get a dedicated device is if you want to have multi-day continuous tracking (i.e. breadcrumb trail), which costs about 5% of battery life per hour according to the site.  (By the way, I use continuous tracking all the time for day hikes without draining my cell phone or taking any of the precautions mentioned above, but I always have a backup battery good for 2-3 recharges just in case the day hike turns out not to be a day hike.)

The main reason to use a cell phone is much better maps that can be bought individually, displayed on a much better screen.  Garmin forces you to buy maps by entire regions and charges an arm and a leg for them.  You can get free third-party maps, but installing them is a multiple-step geeky process and some just plain don't work (long sad experience with this).

Señor Arroz wrote: Just so you understand exactly what "pair with a cellphone" means it doesn't mean one is reliant on the phone cellular data. The Garmin mini has the same satellite connection as the explorer+. You just pair your phone with bluetooth to the garmin to give yourself a good way to input texts into it.

I already use my phone for GPS mapping with GaiaGPS. It works great. As someone else noted, you turn OFF the Wifi and cellular antennas by putting your phone in airplane mode and it lasts a long time, days. It can also be easily charged off of a secondary battery pack and/or a solar charger for longer trips. What kills cell phone batteries FAST in the backcountry is looking for connection. Once the phone stops trying to connect to mobile data the energy consumption slows to a crawl. And, if it somehow dies, the mini Garmin can still get you a text message or an SOS rescue signal without the phone.

Ultimately, the final backup should always be a real map and a real compass. Analog.

But all your reasons for liking the Explorer+ are also valid. I wouldn't say it's the wrong choice for any reason.

Can I get a clarification please? Are you saying you can pre-load your maps onto the mini from your cell? So if your cell phone is dead, or lost, you now have maps on the mini?

Or does this require two live devices at all times?

Lori Milas wrote:

Can I get a clarification please? Are you saying you can pre-load your maps onto the mini from your cell? So if your cell phone is dead, or lost, you now have maps on the mini?

Or does this require two live devices at all times?

No maps on the mini.  Only on the phone. I chose the Explorer+ because it is a standalone device (preloadeed maps on it and texting capability) that doesn't need to be coupled with a cell phone (and I don't take my phone into the backcountry for photos)..

Lori Milas wrote:

Can I get a clarification please? Are you saying you can pre-load your maps onto the mini from your cell? So if your cell phone is dead, or lost, you now have maps on the mini?

Or does this require two live devices at all times?

Sure. No, the mini has no way to display maps (for simplicity we'll call that a "plotter" which is what they're called in aviation and marine situations). But it IS a GPS tracker. It knows exactly where it is, can tell you lat-longitude, and can be told to leave "breadcrumbs" and to direct you how to reverse course following the bread crumbs  back home. I've owned several different stand-alone GPS units. Other than dedicated ones on boats or airplanes with a good plotter, the handheld ones leave a lot to be desired in terms of user interface. I find the phone based ones to be superior from a user standpoint. And I almost always take my phone with me on hikes, climbs, etc. Thus, I put my primary GPS function there. Bear in mind that most places, Lori, you are almost CERTAIN to be carrying your phone anyway. And it's a great first line of defense. Why would anyone send a satellite GPS message first if they've got a working cell signal and can just, for example, call Yosemite Search and Rescue directly?

To me, something like Spot or Garmin InReach (either one) is primarily valuable to 1) let my family or friends see where I am and 2) to fire out a SOS or non-emergency message from outside cell range. The two-way communications ability of the InReach and the new Spot are really great because it lets you communicate with SAR. And the breadcrumb tracking function is a nice backup if my iPhone died for any reason.

Any time you're depending on a battery powered device the same thing can happen that happened with your daughter. Batteries die. Electronics die. The InReach and the Spot are by no means immune to it. But being smart about battery management is the key.

But I'm not saying there's not a good reason to consolidate mapping and communications in a single device. I think the Explorer+ is a great option. 

FWIW, its definitely worth the money to get GaiaGPS on your phone and download all the offline maps for the areas you frequent. I think it's something like $60 for a 5 year membership.