New and Experienced Climbers over 50

PS Honnold got on my 5.13b R on tr at little ole Tick Rock took several burns and could not do it.

 so don't believe all you hear in the climbing news.

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Carl, Top roping a route into submission then leading it, the rating no longer applies. normally the rating is for the on-sight, that's it.

I'm just a lowly intermediate climber who's pretty impressed watching someone work a really hard route until they send it. To each his (or her) own.

yea working it from the ground up leading taking whippers is better. (It's not a send on TR).

Jeff, would you also reject redpoint-based sport climbing rating systems like that prevailing at Spearfish Canyon? I am agnostic on this myself... and Elephants route at Rushmore that I referred to in earlier post is 5.10  not 19! No I haven’t outclassed Ondra and then some:)!

knock off a few letter grades on a redpoint because now you have first hand knowledge of the route. On Sight is the true grade.

Or in their case add at least a grade as their system is based on the climber knowing which pockets (steep limestone there) to use and which red herrings to avoid. Have you ever climbed at Custer State Park?Onsight Ground up ethic still prevails there nearly totally -scary ass place to lead for sure. One of its last stands...No power drills and no rap bolting permitted. Too scary for me most days that I am up there in the Black Hills, but it sounds like you might like it.

Haha, I've done a ton of climbing in Custer State Park, going way way back to the first ascent of the Needle's Eye in 1964.  (An account here if anyone is interested... supertopo.com/tr/The-First-… )  No doubt that in many cases, the uncertainty involved in a ground-up ascent, both in where to go and whether there will be pro, is an obstacle that can be on a par with the cruxes.

Arguments about whether a grade can or should capture some of that onsight uncertainty and encode it into the difficulty of the route have gone on forever.  The only people to genuinely address the problem are the UK climbers with their E-system, but it tries, perhaps, to pack too much into the grade, even though it is combined with a max difficulty rating as well.

Ahhh! The Rich Goldstone of the ‘64 Needles Eye 5.8x route— it is an honor,sir ! Never did that one too scary for me though I climbed a lot of the other stuff right. Was randomly around two climbing fatalities in the Park, which scared me over to Rushmore. Found my Black Hills climbing home there. Don’t know if you have kept up with that scene, but there are a some younger guys there carrying on your bold tradition of dangerous ground up climbing putting up 12+ to 13+ R trad climbs.

Can't say I've kept up with the scene other than what appears in the Needle's section of MP.  I'm certainly aware of a slew of new bold ground-up ascents and am, of course, suitably impressed (understanding that I've never climbed 5.13 and so can't truly appreciate how hard some of those new routes are).

Jeffrey Constine wrote: yea working it from the ground up leading taking whippers is better. (It's not a send on TR).

So sir, here's my question: would you climb with someone like myself, who can't "claim" anything at all, by the parameters you have laid out? Except that I regularly rope up and take my best shot at whatever I can vaguely attempt at that moment?

No snark intended or implied. That's one of the useful parts of grades though, getting a bit of a feel for a potential partners abilities. I'm actually in the "adventure" climb category in spirit, I just am not able to chase that without risking too much healthwise. Broken bones at this  point could cost my mobility.

Oh. And, you sir, clearly are a truly awesome climber, but, I would be thrilled to climb with anyone in this very charming thread. Shoot, I'd be happy just to buy y'all coffee and shoot the breeze!

Best, Helen

Chris Hirsch, in particular, has put up some almost incomprehensible trad routes. He also finished some of The late great Todd Skinner’s unsent sport projects at Rushmore such as Atomic Slap which sat there for like twenty years unsent. Probably the best climber that most people have never heard of...

Nivel Egres wrote:

There is a very good knee bar on the left side there. Great problem and not as scary as some other HT classics.

Ah. Now I see it! Thank you. 

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Carl, Top roping a route into submission then leading it, the rating no longer applies. normally the rating is for the on-sight, that's it.

I do not agree.  If I didn't trad lead a grade 21, what grade did I lead?  Of course it's still a grade 21.  Of course I know that onsighting a climb is more difficult that attempting it over time and then doing it cleanly.  Of course I know top roping a climb is easier than leading it and that even doing a sports climb is easier than trading it. Of course I know doing it hundreds of times on top rope and then leading it is easier.  Of course I know I'm not a 'grade 21 tradder'  My  hardest trad onsight so far is a grade 15, that's the grade I think I'm 'at'.  I never claimed an onsight.  For me, this was a significant send because:

* I don't like falling or even being above my gear/bolts
* I'm a beginner at trad and so am yet to trust my gear absolutely (there's still an element of doubt)
* I haven't yet fallen on my gear
* As a bumbling trader I take longer to select the right gear and place it, which means more energy expenditure.

If you attempt a climb Jeffrey, don't send it first go, then get it next go, what grade do you call it?  Do you call it any grade at all?  Do you say to your mates "Yeah, dudes, tried a grade 25 the other day, gave it a few burns, didn't get it, this weekend I got it but now it's a grade 12".  How many grade points do you subtract for each attempt?  Of COURSE it's still the same grade.  That's why we have descriptions such as onsite, flash, red point, pink point etc. to differentiate from the more difficult task of onsighting and the 'benefit' that beta brings to the situation.  

We have a saying here which you may have too.  "Don't rob me of my send".  I sent a grade 21 on trad regardless of your opinion.

Thanks to everyone else who said well done, it's appreciated   

Old lady H wrote: ...YAY CARL!!! Happy you decided it was time, and you got your project! Truly awesome! Hey, on your YouTube link? I believe if you merely edit in an "enter" key (the one that moves you to a new line), you'll have a clickable link...

Thanks Helen.  Edited the link.   

Eavesdropping on this conversation between lifelong climbers.  Sat mesmerized, rgold, at the climb on the link you shared.  It’s a work of art. Some of us may never get off a top rope, but I appreciate how gracious you all have been to new members to the climbing community.

And just a few days ago I was fussing over packing a backpack and an unhappy climb.  Sort of puts things in perspective!

This afternoon I have laid out on table before me the great book recommended here (Wilderness Navigator), fresh compass on a backplate with declination adjustment and mirrored sighting compass (whaaa?), and map of Truckee and Donner Summit.  I have identified my son’s property (orange dot) and the ‘over yonder’ rock or mountain formation called Buzzard Roost that looks to be about 3 1/2 miles due north. (Doesn’t sound too hopeful for a beginning climber.) what I don’t see are trails but I know there are some. 

Perhaps there is some kind of trail map I could overlay?  And then, within MP I see no description of climbing routes on this mountain.  (Considering that possibility that I'd get there and all it would be is a slab... but other climbers with ropes are cutting through the property to get back there.  I'm assuming there's something to climb.) 
 
This is all new but an enjoyable challenge.  I didn’t consider navigating to be part of climbing but apparently it is.  After the scare with my daughter perhaps it’s my way of feeling more capable when out exploring. So be it. 

Indeed looks like a tough and very cool climb!

Forget buzzard's roost. Here's your spot.

The hole in the ground trail looks like it goes by some good slab.....​​​

Or here, right by the lake. There's a ton (see what I did there) of rock all around that place. Unmarked trails are pretty obvious on the Google maps.

Once I do a route I never forget the moves till dead, call it whatever grade you like! once worked, 5.12's feel like 5.9 after dialing it in, at least some of them do hmm maybe 10 or 11?
PS 21 is about 10+ 11a so that grade is easily obtained by the masses and so are the grades I climb if you put in the effort, I personally will not spend days on end to work a route unless it's my own route. If I can't get a route in a few tries ill get on a new one.

Old Lady Ill climb with you any time you like.

For Pebble pulling the same, dialed=less effort and easier to do. Example Lobster Claws V5 got it first try, got on it again the next day barefoot felt like v2.

Some routes will always feel hard no matter how many times, some.

Black Hills person GU routes are the best style, I have done both, guilty!

Lori Milas wrote: Eavesdropping on this conversation between lifelong climbers.  Sat mesmerized, rgold, at the climb on the link you shared.  It’s a work of art. Some of us may never get off a top rope, but I appreciate how gracious you all have been to new members to the climbing community.

And just a few days ago I was fussing over packing a backpack and an unhappy climb.  Sort of puts things in perspective!

This afternoon I have laid out on table before me the great book recommended here (Wilderness Navigator), fresh compass on a backplate with declination adjustment and mirrored sighting compass (whaaa?), and map of Truckee and Donner Summit.  I have identified my son’s property (orange dot) and the ‘over yonder’ rock or mountain formation called Buzzard Roost that looks to be about 3 1/2 miles due north. (Doesn’t sound too hopeful for a beginning climber.) what I don’t see are trails but I know there are some. 

Perhaps there is some kind of trail map I could overlay?  And then, within MP I see no description of climbing routes on this mountain.  (Considering that possibility that I'd get there and all it would be is a slab... but other climbers with ropes are cutting through the property to get back there.  I'm assuming there's something to climb.) 
 
This is all new but an enjoyable challenge.  I didn’t consider navigating to be part of climbing but apparently it is.  After the scare with my daughter perhaps it’s my way of feeling more capable when out exploring. So be it. 

Lori a great aid to navigation we used to use in the army was a 'navigation data sheet'.  This basically described the route we would take split in to little bite sized logical chunks.  In a table form, you would indicate the compass bearing and distance, and any natural (not man made as they change) features that the map indicated you might look for. You might write "1.3Km on a bearing of 183 degrees.  Ground slopes upwards to my right.  At 750 metres cross a small stream. After another 200 metres ground slopes downwards, with a rocky outcrop to the left".  That way you can check the features off as you come across them.  'Aiming off' is another great skill.  You might actually choose to NOT hit your target, but 'aim off' a few degrees to the L or R to that you hit a track or stream and then follow that to your target.  So for instance on your map if you were navigating cross country from Lower Lola to the orange dot, you might aim off to the right so you hit the track and then follow the track left to the orange dot.  If you aimed straight for the dot and missed it, you might not know if you're actually left of it or right of it...