Acceptance of death and climbing

This subject and these questions aren't openly talked about often, if at all and I'm curious where you all stand on this sometimes uncomfortable subject.

Do you think that the elite free soloists and the "badasses" that climb/put up scary routes can do so because they have accepted their death?

I'm not saying they are rushing to die but do you think they can handle comfortably such monumental risks because they're ok (accepted) that this very moment they may die?

How about you? Have you thought about possessions and death (do you cling to possessions and if so have you accepted your death?). Death and climbing? do you cling to life or is death just as natural as life to you? Let me rephrase that last one: is death (nothingness) just as ok as life (experience, emotion, sensation, etc)? Is one better than the other?

Is climbing to you worth your death?

I think acceptance of our own death is key to moving on in life and can have a profound impact on ones happiness/experience. I'm just curious how others see death? Its not talked about often and I truly don't have a clue if others know/think about their own death...

Thank you for your time!

I watch others, always, I constantly study humans and their ways.

Some can free solo while some place 30 pieces of pro on a 40ft route! Do you think the difference might be acceptance of death? Part of the difference?

Ahhh grasshoppa, death is sound of one hand clapping.

Stoned, good question.

I think that any person who climbs, must answer yes to this question.

Just being in the Mountains, at the crags, or even in a gym puts you in a position where you can die.

Climbing to me is worth it. But that being said, I definitely value my life right now more than anything and am far too young to accept that death could take me at any moment. That's why I'm not a free-soloist. Free soloing is not worth the risk for me, but other facets of climbing definitely are.

'I don't know what free soloists think,'

They don't, that's why they can do what they do.

Honnold is an athiest BTW.

Is driving a car worth your death?

The Stoned Master wrote:Is climbing to you worth your death?

Is driving? Is crossing a street? Is leaving the house?

We all draw the line somewhere.

I think I agree with Steph Davis:

"Everything you do involves some level of risk, so the only question really is 'What do you like doing?'"

To me it's something I concern myself with daily, but at a base level I think the reward overpowers the risk. The passion that I have in climbing, even if sometimes for more dangerous objectives, is much more powerful than my fear of death. To me it would be worse to die in 50 years having never known climbing and continued to do it as long as I could.

Ive thought about this but truth is, nobody wants to die. People just want to have fun. I started out saying i'd never trad climb its too crazy but now i do. These free soloists probably never thought they'd be doing that but they are so good that they are comfortable. Are they scared? Im sure. But so am i on some sport routes.

A kind of off subject that i thought was a rather interesting point:
I was telling my friend that back in the day, those climbers were the real bad-asses. You know, puttin in a piton and a nut in a snow storm and keep climbin. Hip belays from hemp lines and what not. Crazy.
And he said no they are not the bad asses, we are just smarter. Weve learned about forces and the do's and don'ts. You cant measure pure fear. Its the same.

Some extreme types may be in a zen-like state of accepting death, but I think a belief that one cannot die is actually more common.

These are the people that do crazy stuff when they are younger, eventually get hurt or see others get hurt, and then grow up a little.

The master soloists are probably not in this category, but even some of them might be.

Honestly, I think an acceptance of death is pretty uncommon. Most assume they are coming back from every trip.

What the people who are able to do really dangerous stuff day after day have in common is the ability to control their mind. To tune out the fear that is quite natural and focus on the climbing.

I worked it out statistically once... Not accounting for mistakes in either driving or climbing, you are actually four times as likely to get killed driving per mile than climbing per pitch.

Don't flame me for quoting statistics as mistakes and inexperience are what kills in climbing most of the time. Then again, inexperience driving can kill you, too.

With experience and good judgement, it all boils down to climbing being still probably safer than driving... Yet nobody ponders death when they strap in for the drive to work...

Free soloing, though, I feel like confidence in your abilities and the rock is more important... though I would not actually know.

If you start thinking yer gonna die, yer probably more likely to die? Any thoughts?

I live like an animal. "Accepting death" has always been, for me, a transient epiphany. Some time after I begin to think that I've accepted death, I am forced by circumstances to confront it (happened again this past winter on an early season ice lead... 80 ft runout on the last 2/3 of a challenging 120 ft pitch), and realize that I can never accept death - as an option, or as an end-point. Life is a never-ending struggle for greater fulfillment, and so after accepting-->confronting-->fearing-->"accepting" death several times, I've come to realize that my time and effort is better spent embracing the animal inside me than trying to seek some comfort in transient rationalizations. By not kidding myself into thinking that I can get a permanent "zen" from some careful philosophical analysis but instead embracing my love of life and desire for fulfillment, I can move on to the more important question: Not how do I deal with my death, but what should I do with my life?

Tick tock...

Davis Stevenson wrote:I worked it out statistically once... Not accounting for mistakes in either driving or climbing, you are actually four times as likely to get killed driving per mile than climbing per pitch.

From the statistics I've looked up, this is 100% accurate, at least to an order of magnitude.

But this shows that humans are really bad at evaluating risk, more than anything. For the average American, at least, driving a car is by far the most dangerous thing they'll ever do, and yet we all assume we'll never get hurt.

Timothy.Klein wrote: From the statistics I've looked up, this is 100% accurate, at least to an order of magnitude.

If I find my sources and calculations I'll post them...

I studied a ton of Stats... definitely not just random spray I made up this morning.

Is living worth dying???

Indeed it is, and it is all about the ride.

Climbing (even with ropes) varies dramatically in the risks with Himalaya summits being the most dangerous ( 1 in 25 who summit die or something like that)followed by general snow/ice mountaineering and the least dangerous being sport climbing and gyms.

I think the "average" level of climbing has slowly gotten safer over the years. Older bolted routes tend to be more runout - gear has become better.

I think you should ask the subject of this thread: mountainproject.com/v/30-gr…

Death is definitely not okay to me. I intellectually understand that I'm choosing to engage in an activity that increases my risk of death but I'm certainly not okay with it. Having a young child only made me even less okay with it.

The only reason I continue to climb is that I feel its benefits for my life and by extension my loved ones outweigh the risks. The clarity and singlemindedness I can have while climbing are hard for me find elsewhere. The discipline and thoughtfulness about my actions, my partners and my objectives have spilled over into other areas of my life slowly. Climbing, mistakes made while climbing and their consequences are very real, and they're real in a way that's hard to duplicate in much of my life. I really value these things.

I've thought about it and I'm not sure I could give up climbing but let's say I could. My suspicion is that my family would have to get accustomed to living with a person who was less happy, less dynamic and was learning and growing less. Maybe that's a trade they'd make after the fact if I'm killed at some point but its not a trade I'm ready to make at this point.

All that having been said I do feel a tremendous responsibility to my child to not act in a haphazard or cavalier way while climbing. I certainly think its impacted the grade that I will lead at. I always want to feel a comfort zone between what I know is my physical limit and what I'm leading when on gear. So while I think I've accepted that I may die while climbing my efforts to avoid dying while climbing have also impacted my climbing. Not much of a samurai mindset is it?

--Wannabe

Maybe you hang with the wrong people... it seems to me this is talked about pretty often.. so much so that it's become somewhat of a meme here.... "Yer Gunna Die"

Have you done much free soloing? I don't know that there is a single answer. When I lived in the area I free soloed at Pond Bank pretty often when I didn't have a partner. Soloing at the Water Gap had a different decision matrix... the rock was sometimes loose, and falls had higher consequence.

I can say, that at no time during the climb, or really in the decision process, did wondering about death come into play. It was all stuff thought about and discussed around campfires before ever even doing it. All the soloist I've talked to, and myself, have said that soloing is about life... not about death. Which makes for great copy, but might have little meaning to anyone but the individual. Sometimes, you just want to do something alone, and want to do it the way you want to do it.

Your own first response is interesting.. because at times I've soloed, and at other times I've sewn up routes. Just depends on the day.

All of these responses are appreciated and I have read each.

Wannabe yours is the freshest in my mind and I appreciate your honesty about death not being acceptable.

I enjoy this subject. I do ponder my actions, especially with free soloing and I ask myself "is death today while doing an elective activity that I enjoy worth me not seeing my son grow up? Not seeing my (potential) grandkids?

If I were to die while climbing (for fun as always) if I could look back at my lifeless body, if I could see my wifes face when she found out, if I could see how it affects my son and friends and family would it be worth it?

Death is the only guarantee I have seen so far and its a really interesting subject. Thanks for sharing!

P.s. sorry if others have posted already, this response took me 10mins.