Gear Failure on West Face Leaning Tower results in whipper.

Check out this video from Black Diamond at :50.

youtube.com/watch?v=5ilVgLH…

Based on this I'd say the gate had to have been open.
Also no deformation on the nose of your broken biner hints to the open gate theory.

There have been a number of posts here suggesting that there is something wrong with the practice of using any sling longer than a quickdraw (aka, a "trad draw"), in that the longer slings increase the chance of gate whip.

It seems to me like using a long sling to minimize drag is about as controversial at this point as using a harness or a nylon rope...ie, not at all. And if current carabiners are not adequate to deal with that eventuality, then it's the carabiners that are inadequate, not the slings.

Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice?

Optimistic wrote:There have been a number of posts here suggesting that there is something wrong with the practice of using any sling longer than a quickdraw (aka, a "trad draw"), in that the longer slings increase the chance of gate whip. It seems to me like using a long sling to minimize drag is about as controversial at this point as using a harness or a nylon rope...ie, not at all. And if current carabiners are not adequate to deal with that eventuality, then it's the carabiners that are inadequate, not the slings. Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice?

gate whip can be easily minimized by using wiregates which many already are

Optimistic: Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice?

I feel safe using a non-locking biner, no way am I dragging that many lockers. My experience tells me 99.99% of the time this is/will be adequate at least; I can't predict the future and the potential for something to malfunction/go wrong is always there.

To each his own though: safety is relative. Example: I tend to feel super comfortable using 2 bomber (solid rock + solid placement) pieces as an anchor. Many people would feel unsafe even though I feel safe.

Don Ferris wrote:Check out this video from Black Diamond at :50. Based on this I'd say the gate had to have been open. Also no deformation on the nose of your broken biner hints to the open gate theory.

BD guy says they've never seen a closed gate failure in the real world since we can't generate forces that high so it must have been open gate failure. Sounds like case closed, time to get some wire gates... no?

Ill take this opportunity to inquire: why are wire gates superior for crossloading, etc?

I use strictly wire gates myself but am unsure why they are tougher than the non-wire gates?

Optimistic wrote:Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice?

Multi-pitch gear is my favorite climbing venue. I don't feel that sling extension without a locker is relatively unsafe.

In that climbing venue, needing to occasionally extend a sling is a given to anyone who has led much. I can imagine once in a while putting a locker on the rope-side biner of that piece placed early on lead, or on that early bolt with decking potential ... at the same time, I don't see myself doing that as a matter of habit.

I've never bought one of those bent gates. Sure, it is easier to clip the rope ... or inadvertently un-clip I guess. But aren't they also easier to wriggle off a bolt hanger?

Starting to replace my non-locker solid gates with the wire gate Wild Country Heliums. The heliums have an open-gate strength of 10 kN ... a little more margin than these bent gates (and many others) and still very light. At the same time, I wouldn't use them if I were lowering a lot on my draws as they can wear to a sharp edge. And since I generally don't aid climb, I'll continue to use a tube-style device.

It can't be said enough ... what a bizarre accident with so many failures. Glad Shern and Anthony are still with us!

Bill L

The Stoned Master wrote:Ill take this opportunity to inquire: why are wire gates superior for crossloading, etc? I use strictly wire gates myself but am unsure why they are tougher than the non-wire gates?

In general, they're not better for cross loading. They may better in the major axis, and may or may not be better open.

Since we've been talking about Mammut: the Mammut Classic keylock and the wire keylock have the same gate open and miner axis rating, but the major axis is 1kN more for the wire gate. The Moses wire and the Element (solid) keylock are the same in each rating (23-8-8). The Bionic wire is stronger in the major axis, but the same open and weaker x-loaded than the solid gate.

The wires are (supposedly) less prone to gate flutter, so they may be more likely to stay closed than an equivalent solid gate.

Bill Lawry wrote: .. I've never bought one of those bent gates. Sure, it is easier to clip the rope ... or inadvertently un-clip I guess. But aren't they also easier to wriggle off a bolt hanger? ...

Why would you ever put a bent gate on a bolt hanger?

Thanks csproul! Good, clear explanation. Thanks man.

Csproul, the trick I've seen for showing wire gates have less gate flutter is this...

Take a solid gate and smack the nose against your palm. You should hear the gate quickly open and shut again. Do the same thing with a wire gate and you should hear nothing.

All my trad draws are made from wiregates.

The Stoned Master wrote:Optimistic: Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice? I feel safe using a non-locking biner, no way am I dragging that many lockers. My experience tells me 99.99% of the time this is/will be adequate at least; I can't predict the future and the potential for something to malfunction/go wrong is always there. To each his own though: safety is relative. Example: I tend to feel super comfortable using 2 bomber (solid rock + solid placement) pieces as an anchor. Many people would feel unsafe even though I feel safe.

It nice to see a bit of real world logic and calm thinking here.

csproul wrote: Why would you ever put a bent gate on a bolt hanger?

Good idea to clearly make that point here.

Before the draws were extended, were they tripled or doubled to shorten them? Tripled ones extend cleanly; doubled ones extend with a loop around the spine of one of the biners. Loading them with the wrap seems like a bad idea.

dp- wrote:Before the draws were extended, were they tripled or doubled to shorten them? Tripled ones extend cleanly; doubled ones extend with a loop around the spine of one of the biners. Loading them with the wrap seems like a bad idea.

it was the rope end that broke on both of the lower pieces ... so the wrap is irrelevant, as when you extend a draw itll be the piece side that has the wrap if anything ... the rope side will almost always be "clean" since you are clipping a single strand

the other thing to note is that the first piece was NOT a backclip, which by definition would mean the rope would unclip itself off the biner in a fall ... the biner was still attached to the rope ... i suspect the biner and sling got loaded into a position or against something where it unclipped itself

again ... where any of the biners loaded against/into a crack or some other feature?

bearbreeder wrote: so the wrap is irrelevant, as when you extend a draw itll be the piece side that has the wrap if anything ... the rope side will almost always be "clean" since you are clipping a single strand.

Right...Assuming they were extended like most people do with the loop on the gear/bolt end. On the other hand, they are reported to have been dyneem slings so I wouldn't expect them to have be doubled up.

Probably a false trail since I don't know anyone who doubles their runners anymore. I only thought of it b/c there was speculation about torsion and the photo looks like there was a break where the twist usually stacks up.

dp- wrote: Right...Assuming they were extended like most people do with the loop on the gear/bolt end. On the other hand, they are reported to have been dyneem slings so I wouldn't expect them to have be doubled up. Probably a false trail since I don't know anyone who doubles their runners anymore. I only thought of it b/c there was speculation about torsion and the photo looks like there was a break where the twist usually stacks up.

The slings were tripled into a draw.

CraigS. wrote:After reviewing the added picture of the fractured surface, the angle of the fracture, some examples from my "Failure Analysis of Engineering Materials" book, and the BD blog listed above . . . my mildly educated SWAG would be failure due to torsional stress with the gate closed that started at a notch as one person mentioned from clipping to a bolt or other similar damage. Please take this with a grain of salt as I am only looking at pictures, reading, and reviewing. I did not sleep at a "Holiday Inn Express" last night either, but I was a reliability engineer in a processing plant for a few years and had to make similar analyses. Usually, though, most of my failures were from either chemicals or improper installation/use.

I could be wrong but doesn't the 45 degree failure plane indicate that a tensile force caused the failure? Pretty sure a torsional failure would leave a horizontal failure plane for a ductile material like aluminum. This seems more likely as the climb was overhanging and not much could have trapped the biner to cause a torsional force. Somehow the gate must have opened...

The Stoned Master wrote:Ill take this opportunity to inquire: why are wire gates superior for crossloading, etc? I use strictly wire gates myself but am unsure why they are tougher than the non-wire gates?

The wires are made of steel. Very hard to break the actual gate. Solid gates are made of alloy. They can snap . Also, the wire gates tend to have more tension. Hence, less likely to come open from whiplash and gate flutter.

Will S wrote:were all Mammut biners. Those Moses superlight wiregates were blowing up left and right a few years ago. I'd chalk the whole deal up to freaky anomaly...but I also wouldn't be climbing on Mammut biners anytime soon either.

I did some googling because my rack is held together with Moses biners ...

Thread with two responses from Mammut...the initial response and then a detailed one.

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;tn=0&mr=0