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Killis, starting an Internet bolting "discussion"? This should disintegrate quicky. And I think you know that!

I'm certain I know exactly what/whom you're referring to. Although I tend to fall more in Killis' camp on this matter, I know the individual; he's a good guy and IMO his viewpoint is not ego-driven. He can do a better job than I at explaining his rationale so I won't put words in his mouth.

I will say that while I agree with Killis that I like to preserve the original history, be it "good" or "bad", the problem is that its not always evident which fixed gear is original. MANY routes have had hardware added after the FA or FFA. A common scenario is a pin added after the FA, then after a few years once the pin is rattly, it gets replaced. At many crags the ethic is to replace old fixed pins with bolts. So what once was a runout has slippery-sloped itself right down to a bomber glue-in, and attributed to the FA to boot.

From an aesthetic perspective, a rusty star drive seems to fit right in on a classic trad line, while a shiny SS Fixe hanger sticks out like a sore thumb. Not really an argument I know, but you can't blame the old guard for placing a star drive when all they had for clean pro was RPs, Hexes and rigid stem Friends. We have so many options now, from Ballnutz to Big Bros, I would prefer that in situations like this, where good clean gear is available, we just leave the museum pieces in place to preserve the history and let those inclined stuff whatever new-fangled gear is at hand in the adjacent, once-unprotectable-seam.

Killis, are you talking about Cerro Torre or Cat In The Hat? Context sort of matters in these discussions.

First ascent information and artifacts (mank bolts and pins) should be recorded in guidebooks. With advancements in gear, we can easily leave a smaller footprint behind. Pins and junky bolts are cool reminders, but if they come out, I don't believe they are worth crying over.

Campfires are great places to talk about the legends that made do with what they had. Hopefully in 30 years, they will talk about how amazing our era of climbing was with preservation of the resource in mind. As long as relics of the past are talked about and remembered, nobody is going to forget about the bold men that climbed with hemp ropes and hip belays.

Saw this on Supertopo recently:

youtube.com/watch?v=XvJK5Iu…

Ol'time-y fun.

Killis is referring to me, and my post on the condition of the bolts on Cloud Tower (Here's the link: mountainproject.com/v/cloud…). He had the courtesy to email me privately about this, but obviously not without also commenting publicly as well as starting a brand new thread about it.

I don't really understand, Killis; I've asked you several times to go climbing, and you've expressed what I take to be sincere interest but have always come up with some reason why you can't... we've even talked about some major, and minor, rebolting public service work in Red Rocks, but you then just disappear out of communication... Only to reappear saying all sorts of nasty things publicly.

Killis, I don't mean any disrespect to anyone - certainly not the hardmen who put up Cloud Tower. I try to be helpful (to future hardware replacers) and I try to help (by replacing hardware myself and posting route beta - weren't you just praising me a couple weeks ago for posting some obscurities on mp.com?), but I also have my opinion. In this case it is that old 1/4" bolts right next to BOMBER gear placements aren't worthy of replacement (yes, I went so far as to suggest they should be chopped). I'm just trying to help - I really didn't want to create a big drama Killis. Though I suppose, whenever you start a thread people can't help but look to see what kind of train wreck will imminently ensue.

Perhaps I'll change my name to "Josh New Jack Past-Eraser Janes". Has a nice ring to it.

I doubt a train wreck will ensue at this point. Both parties are present. Anyway, carry on.

Simply stated - do not add bolts to routes, y'all.

Josh Janes wrote: I don't really understand, Killis; I've asked you several times to go climbing, and you've expressed what I take to be sincere interest but have always come up with some reason why you can't... we've even talked about some major, and minor, rebolting public service work in Red Rocks, but you then just disappear out of communication... Only to reappear saying all sorts of nasty things publicly.

why is it this sounds just about right?

I wonder what Misty thinks?

And not to derail the thread but I prefer leaving the old gear in probably cause I'm lazy and dont need any extra work. I hope someone took some good photos of all the old rusty, pulled partially out and bent 1/4"ers on Prince of Darkness. That was half the fun of the route when I did it.

Bryan Ferguson wrote:Simply stated - do not add bolts to routes, y'all.

Simply stated this discussion is about removing bolts from routes, and replacing bad anchors.

When retroing the fixed gear on a route I sometimes leave old pins for the historical sense they give, but when replacing old bolts, I definitely think the old mank should be removed and patched (assuming you are not reusing the same hole). I will pull old manky pins if someone thinking they are safe to clip creates an unsafe situation.

For instance, on the Jim Dunn's historic Stewarts Crack at Green's Cliff, NH I left the original anchor pins while placing a safe two bolt anchor (permission from Jim) There is now a safe anchor that doesn't require the leaving of long chord or webbing to pull your rope, but seeing the pins makes you think back to the conditions and adventure he had first putting it up.

Whats the big deal with having to leave an old rusted piece of metal in the wall? Do you guys really get that nostalgic over a rusted bolt?? Puhlease.

Its just a rusted old bolt, don't get attached so easily.

Josh Janes wrote:Killis is referring to me, and my post on the condition of the bolts on Cloud Tower...

You guys are both locals and it seems you both are willing to put your money where your mouth is when it comes to doing work for the climbing community (props to you for that), so why not take it back off-line and see if you can't sort it out? I really think you stand a better chance of coming to terms face to face than through a war of words here.

Since nobody can seem to grasp the topic here, I'll spell it out. They are talking about pulling (and not replacing)bolts that were put in next to good gear placements. When alot of these routes went in at Red Rock, Friends were just coming out and pitons weren't reliable in the soft sandstone so bolts were placed next to cracks. Now that technology and availability of gear is more prolific, the question is whether or not to replace the bolts on these routes once they've exceeded their useful life.

Personally I'd rather see the bolts pulled and not replaced, as long as the first ascensionist is ok with it.

Strange opening post. Not sure exactly what you're talking about "shit talking the bolts put in ground up", all he did was recommend pulling them given their age/condition and adequate placements nearby. I was Josh's partner on the route in question a couple days ago, and I'd agree 100%. There were gear placements right next to them. It really has nothing to do with history, or not needing the bolts because you're bold or something, they are just old and likely unreliable.

Given that the community wouldn't support replacing the bolts since there are good gear placements nearby (and rightly so), it seems like more of a safety issue to me than anything to do with aesthetics or history. People probably still clip those junkers occasionally, and removing that temptation would make it safer IMO.

What I do find comical is Killis starting this thread after having posted this bad information in the route's entry comments:

Killis wrote:Unless Spencer's ascent has happened since bolts sprouted left and right on the route and disappeared in other spots, the bolt counts he describes do not exist. There is one untrustworty bolt (the only pro bolt on the climb) at the start of the thin corner pitch, then two good bolts above-easy to rap from here, if you feel like missing the stellar upper handcrack pitches. The final belay (as installed by PVB etc back in the day) has three bolts by my memory, not five,

My memory isn't the best, but it's only been about 48hrs since we were up there so I'm pretty clear on this one. You are wrong about the pro bolts on the route, there are two on the crux pitch. You are wrong about the bolt count on the final belay, which had at least 4 that I counted.

Finally, the "raging ego" thing cracked me up. Soooo far off base. Enjoy your faux controversy though, I guess.

Killis Howard wrote:I guess when I hear some New Jack shit-talking the bolts put in ground-up, hand-drilled on lead by some of my favorite oldschool madmen, it really makes me bummed about the lack of respect that we as a group sometimes have for our predecessors.

So you ACTUALLY heard him talking shit on your "favorite old school madmen" or are you just posting rumors and conjecture?

It sounds like you and the guy in question have talked before, why the attempt to stir up shit by posting this in an online forum?

DexterRutecki wrote: It sounds like you and the guy in question have talked before, why the attempt to stir up shit by posting this in an online forum?

You must be new around here.

Yeah, those bolts on Rosy Crucifixion have got to go. After all, we did the first free ascent without them.

Cat fight!

But seriously folks, routes can evolve with modern gear and history will be remembered without relics to remind us, ala the Compressor Route.

Fascists think the less bolts the better!

Killis Howard wrote:Disintegration in progress, FrankPS. Mono, I feel what you're saying. I've been thumping the "talk to the FA party first" drum pretty loudly, the OP was a reaction to my perception that that wasn't happening. Josh, I called you out on the page for the route and, as you pointed out, maybe grand ethical debates shouldn't go on for pages in the comments for that route. I didn't intend to rip you a new one on this page, but to me"I don't really understand, Killis; I've asked you several times to go climbing, and you've expressed what I take to be sincere interest but have always come up with some reason why you can't... we've even talked about some major, and minor, rebolting public service work in Red Rocks, but you then just disappear out of communication... Only to reappear saying all sorts of nasty things publicly. " does exactly that. If I need to publicly justify to you why I haven't climbed with you yet, I'll do so publicly, since that's how you're calling me out: 1 Up til 3 weeks ago I had two jobs, working 9 shifts a week. 2 I just had a near-paralyzing injury, which I emailed you about. I'm lucky to have gotten in the 2 pitches I've climbed in the last month, and more so to be alive, period. 3 I've been replacing bolts on classic Urioste climbs that rely heavily on bolts and are remote; you may have heard of Coltrane, Chicken Lips, Crimson Chrysalis, and some others? 4 I know that you publicly and privately hold some beliefs about replacing bolts that don't sit well with me. 5 Unlike many rock climbers who are solidly at the obsession level, I maintain social interaction with non-climbers and have other interests that help me keep a balanced perspective, like the gourmet dinner I'm about to make for a certain lady, the house party I'm scheduled to attend later with the UNLV women's tennis team being present, and so on. Not to belabor the point, but there is other shit happening in life on occasion if we stop and bother to notice it. 6 Most importantly, I've been lucky to be in a situation where I have so many quality partners that I have rarely needed to seek outside help except for total misery hauls such as Chicken Lips. Since we're doing this in public (which I wasn't aware of when I emailed you back earlier), hope that covers us. Got to get the rice cooker cracking, I'll be back on in a couple days (after I "disappear" to eat, work, get laid, socialize, sleep, and hopefully even get my semi-healed up carcass on some rock to read more. But you really are my first priority.

Wow, holy crap are you full of yourself! That was an interesting read... You certainly hold a very high opinion of yourself!