Being a climber means not being an adult?

muttonface wrote: Is there a way to determine who is more responsible for negative impact- dirtbaggers or nine-to-fivers/weekend warriors?

There is, and most of us have probably witnessed it. Just spend a full week (not spring break or thanksgiving) in the Creek or Yosemite (preferably late fall or early spring) and observe what happens on Friday afternoon-Sunday evening. See what kind of "impact" occurs from the users that remain after the hordes have vacated. Just in terms of the sheer ratio of people, the impact is greatly lessened. I love JohnL's quote here. Perfectly describes what I've seen in many areas when I was a dirtbag (and even now that I'm not):

JohnL wrote:It was the weekenders who were partying in the parking lot all night. Screaming at the moon while everyone else tried to sleep. It was guys in newish cars and fancy tents who were setting off fireworks in Indian Creek.

To Brian, I would argue that having first been a dirtbag actually humbles you and teaches you firsthand about the impacts climbers, as a user group, have on an area. For my own part, I feel WAY more attuned to impact and access issues because of my time spent living long-term in climbing areas.

One of the better debates of late.
I'd have to say that Killis put it best. The problem with climbing area resource management is those folks that coincidentally climb but head out on the weekends primarily to forget about their lives.
And as climbing becomes more and more popular this problem isn't taking care of itself anytime soon.

The Tensleep locals comment about the chick from Thermopolis cracked me up. I remember climbing at Tensleep when there were only maybe 20 people there for the 4th of July weekend celebration.
Watch Fight Club again and remember that you're not a unique snowflake... move on, be considerate of others and have fun.

muttonface wrote: I contribute to the hordes I suppose...

As do all the rest of us, dirtbag or not.

muttonface wrote:...but I don't shit cragside, I don't leave trash or orange peels or tickmarks, and I don't bring dogs, rap from trees, or install bolts. I have cleaned up others' trash and shit (once) believe it or not. I don't have a problem with anyone as long as they do shit right and don't jeopardize anything for anyone else or screw up someone's experience.

I believe that most of us fit into this category (you actually sound like a particularly good advocate :) ). Like we've mentioned, it's the bad apples that create the most blatant examples of how not to behave. There are a lot more of those in the "weekend warrior" category, perhaps not statistically but numerically. 1 bad apple for every 10 dirtbags=3 or 4 in the whole Creek, mid-week in November. 1 bad apple for every 10 weekend warriors=a whole shitton more than 4 on the weekends.

First, the facts:

>Generalizations are only ever generally accurate.
>>Often, they hurt feelings, frustrate, and cause anger.
>>>>>Trying to start a productive discussion with them = failblog.

The OP's main concern seems to be:
When large numbers of people circumvent systems/infrastructure built to mitigate the negative effects of people in a given environment, the negative effects of their actions are magnified.

In this case, the group is dirtbags, circumventing systems like pay campsites designed to concentrate environmental impact, and their ostensible motivation is saving money. Adding to the sting of the whole thing is the suspicion held by many that many dirtbags are in fact just disingenuous sons and daughters of rich baby-boomers, donning the persona to assuage their collective race/class/colonizer guilt.

Again:
Trying to start a productive discussion based on hurtful stereotypes = failblog.

IMHO the OP is misguided. There aren't as many dirtbags out there as you think. Blaming them is like Europeans blaming "gypsies" for all their social ills. But what I have seen of people at climbing sites, the worst behavior comes not from cheapskates, but from people in a rush. To party, to 'scend, and to generally live it up before returning to the world to which they/we have committed the majority of their/our time.

In our haste, we conveniently forget our stated values, so we waste tremendous amounts of fossil fuels driving 12 hours for 10 or so hours on the rock, wake up sleep-deprived, skip the bathroom on the way to the crag (it's getting late!), pack stupid/inadequate gear and no map/topo, and neglect to set up reasonable systems of communication with our seconds before lift-off.

The result is that we shit at the cliff, need rescue way more often, and at best hang around the craig yelling at our seconds and occasionally getting dropped because we never took the time to figure out the rope communication for 'on belay.'
All because we were in a rush.

Bummer about our way of life.

MegaGaper2000 wrote:...The OP's main concern seems to be: When large numbers of people circumvent systems/infrastructure built to mitigate the negative effects of people in a given environment, the negative effects of their actions are magnified...

i thought the OP was just asking whether or not it was necessary to live in a van down by the river to be a hard climber.

MegaGaper2000 wrote:Again: Trying to start a productive discussion based on hurtful stereotypes = failblog.

Pretty much. There's absolutely no insight into anything other than some dudes hate some ill-defined group of people.

Crag Dweller wrote: i thought the OP was just asking whether or not it was necessary to live in a van down by the river to be a hard climber.

You're right, damn it. I was thinking of the whole discussion that followed. The OP raised some good questions. But I think they were largely ignored, immediately, in favor of pawing over the same old ground, and poking fun at the same old stereotypes.

For the record, the OP's main question seems to be:
So why do so many climbers feel like they can't fit into society and still climb hard?

His main claim seems to be:
The guys that don't get credit for what they do are the ones that work 40hrs a week and climb 5.13/put up new routes/climb big peaks/go on big missions and still have a family and a job and a dog.

The first sounds to me like a pretty unanswerable question, unless you're a sociologist, or interested in trashing on trustafarians. The second sounds to me like a bit of bitterness for not being recognized. Who cares who get's what credit?

Sam Stephens wrote:So I was having this discussion with my head setter last night after work. We were talking about why some climbers think that they have to be homeless, dirt-bag, live out of a truck, get high and eat beanie weenies type to be considered a climber, and to climb hard as well. Yea, it'd be great if I could live out of a van in the hills around the New River Gorge and migrate to the desert during the winter, but I have a dog, a girlfriend, and an engineering degree that I'm still trying to find a job with. So maybe if I didn't have any of that going on, I could work just a few months a year and travel and live out of a tent and my VW. But I have that stuff and still climb hard by most standards. I do want a real job so I can make real money and have the things I want. What I mostly want is to climb, but I do like shooting and have a terrible addiction to fine 1911 pistols. I don't actually like marijuana (all for legalization though), I cook fairly well, work extremely hard when I have a job and am working pretty hard to find one. So why do so many climbers feel like they can't fit into society and still climb hard? The guys that don't get credit for what they do are the ones that work 40hrs a week and climb 5.13/put up new routes/climb big peaks/go on big missions and still have a family and a job and a dog.

Wow, how self-righteous of you, Sam. Maybe you could've framed the topic differently rather than bagging on the path some of us have chosen. To each his own, man...good luck paying off your school loans and worrying about what other folks are doing, I'll be out ticking off the classics.

We are only what time and circumstance makes us...

I'm an elementary school teacher, a father of a 19 mos. old, a husband, and I have a mortgage, yet I still manage to run 60 miles a week, and I climb 5.12. It just takes some discipline. Not to mention, I like sleeping in my own bed too much.

TakeTakeTake wrote: Wow, how self-righteous of you, Sam. Maybe you could've framed the topic differently rather than bagging on the path some of us have chosen. To each his own, man...good luck paying off your school loans and worrying about what other folks are doing, I'll be out ticking off the classics.

Uhmmmm, ok? For what it's worth if I didn't have the obligations I do, I'd probably be driving around climbing more. My question was mainly about why people feel like they have to strive to be dirt bags in order to fit into the community and be considered a real climber.

Sam Stephens wrote: ... My question was mainly about why people feel like they have to strive to be dirt bags in order to fit into the community and be considered a real climber.

I'm a bit surprised to hear people feel that way. I don't feel that way. I dirt-bagged for a little while in my youth, and it didn't make me feel like any more of a "real climber". I think people want to be full time climbers because generally climbing is more fun than working.

I've known a lot of dirtbags. Mostly short-termers like myself, just taking a break from the rat race to "live the dream". Most of the long-term dirtbaggers I've known weren't doing it as a first choice, rather they were trying to make the best of a situation with few enticing options. Given the choice they would prefer a more stable lifestyle that would facilitate climbing, but that isn't easy for everyone to attain.

Maybe beside the point, but it seems like media/advertisers are trying to "sell" the dirtbag lifestyle as the 'one true path' to climbing elightenment. I don't see a conspiracy; I just assume its a lot more romantic than photos of people sitting in a cubicle 40 hrs/week, and thus, sells more shoes. Of course they don't discuss health insurance, retirement planning, etc in the marketing fantasy, just like Budweiser doesn't bring up herpes in its ads.

Nick Stayner wrote:I just hate that you're equating all "dirtbags" into this realm.

I have NEVER run into a dirtbagger that shared something of theirs with the group.

Of course, that's just been my experience.

First off. You state you are looking for a job. So I will say for argument sake you aren't trying hard enough to not be a "dirtbag". I don't support that idea but it is that easy to solve the issue.

Dirtbags/Everydays/Jobaholics all have their place in society. Trustfunders/Litterbugs/Work-Nazis dont. If you are in the first category you understand you part in society and how they work with the other. (dirtbag works as seasonal employee, managed by everyday guy, who works at store owned by jobaholics (Ex: Belay rat, Gym manager, Gym Owner).

Second Scenario:
Trustfunder moves out because mum and dad told him to clean his room, Trustfunder in return doesn't pick up his garbage else where (litterbug). Trustfunders well educated hard working friend stays with him for a week they have bonfires and party hard on his pals vacation leaving PBR cans and firewood around the Pit in Bishop. Work-Nazi is stressed and bitches about dirtbag kids because he hates his own life.

It isn't about what you do in society. It is about HOW you do it. You can live a good life/climb strong and come from any area of society. hating another group and generalizing just implements the stereotypes for everyone.

I have worked 60+ hours a week managing a outdoor store, I have lived out of my jeep for 6 months as a dirtbag and I now am finishing school and working. You do see it in all walks of life, all over. It isn't just the dirtbags leaving stuff and ruining access it is everyone who is careless. Next time just tell them to pick up their stuff or you will call te cops.

As for the Marijuana, Beanie weenie thing. That is like me saying you must be a pick up driving, muslim hating, animal beating redneck because you like guns.
probably untrue but you get what I mean.

not trying to offend you or preach. I just think you had a few bad experiences with idiots.

As a professional (high school teacher) and a relatively serious climber, I don't think I've felt like an undedicated climber. I chose being a teacher because it allowed me to have much of the stability and comforts of "normal life" and "live the dream" traveling (dirtbagging, if you will) for shorter stints. I've never felt like I wasn't a "serious climber" because I wasn't a fulltime dirtbag. I have several friends who have been fulltime climbers (dirtbags, not pros) for a long time. Some of them have become pros; it's cool that they've managed to get paid for what they do, but it's not for me. I'll admit that while I'm envious of the freedom and adventures they've had I'm ultimately prouder of the balance I've found in my life - it sweetens the things I have accomplished. In some ways, I feel like a more committed climber because I go climbing whenever I get the chance between other commitments rather than as my main priority.

I guess part of why I love being part of the climbing community is that it is, compared to most other selective communities, pretty accommodating of a range of lifestyles. Sure, people who live with a high level of entitlement are annoying, but so are those who are highly judgmental. Climbing, to most of the world, is a really weird thing to spend time doing, even more so when we look at how much many of us sacrifice to climb rocks. That is the divide I feel with "normal society" - that very few folks I work and interact with get why I'm compelled to do what I do. I like that.

It has always seemed to me that the world needs more ether, and hippy chicks with tone shoulders

Killis, hook us up

25 and Sam has it figured out. yeah....right!

PosiDave wrote:First off. You state you are looking for a job. So I will say for argument sake you aren't trying hard enough to not be a "dirtbag". I don't support that idea but it is that easy to solve the issue. Dirtbags/Everydays/Jobaholics all have their place in society. Trustfunders/Litterbugs/Work-Nazis dont. If you are in the first category you understand you part in society and how they work with the other. (dirtbag works as seasonal employee, managed by everyday guy, who works at store owned by jobaholics (Ex: Belay rat, Gym manager, Gym Owner). Second Scenario: Trustfunder moves out because mum and dad told him to clean his room, Trustfunder in return doesn't pick up his garbage else where (litterbug). Trustfunders well educated hard working friend stays with him for a week they have bonfires and party hard on his pals vacation leaving PBR cans and firewood around the Pit in Bishop. Work-Nazi is stressed and bitches about dirtbag kids because he hates his own life. It isn't about what you do in society. It is about HOW you do it. You can live a good life/climb strong and come from any area of society. hating another group and generalizing just implements the stereotypes for everyone. I have worked 60+ hours a week managing a outdoor store, I have lived out of my jeep for 6 months as a dirtbag and I now am finishing school and working. You do see it in all walks of life, all over. It isn't just the dirtbags leaving stuff and ruining access it is everyone who is careless. Next time just tell them to pick up their stuff or you will call te cops. As for the Marijuana, Beanie weenie thing. That is like me saying you must be a pick up driving, muslim hating, animal beating redneck because you like guns. probably untrue but you get what I mean. not trying to offend you or preach. I just think you had a few bad experiences with idiots.

Good comments Dave, and all along the reason I was having this discussion. I'm not hating on anyone, just trying to figure out what I was missing. I think a lot of the sterotyping is done for us already as someone pointed out earlier by companies like Patagonia that in some ways glorify it and maybe the correlation I made was incorrect.

BScallout wrote:25 and Sam has it figured out. yeah....right!

Nowhere did I pretend to have it figured out, I started a dialogue so I could get input on some thoughts and topics that had been floating around and it seems to have garnered a lot of input and pinpointed some areas that may be misunderstood, exaggerated, or over stereotyped.

Thanks for reminding me what a douche Mark Twight is. Wow that guy is full of himself.

You should look at guys like Monomaniac and Mike and Jared Campbell and many, many others who don't need to be so one-dimensional. For example, Jared is a PhD engineer, husband and world class ultra-runner. He also climbs 3.13 off the couch, making me feel completely and utterly inadequate. But he's a hell of a nice guy and gives a lot to a lot of people.

You're young, so live that way and do what comes naturally. Just be true to yourself and give all you can to those around you. If that doesn't come naturally, then what's the point of even asking?

You can have relationships, give to something bigger than yourself and still climb. In fact, its pretty dang fun. Climbing becomes something a lot deeper and more therapeutic when you make it simply one part of life and not the whole.

The lowest on the totem pole are glorified in every sport,

Climbing-Dirtbag
Skiing-Ski bum
Surfing- Beach Bum

I'm sure there are many more!