Devil's Head guidebook poaching

hi jack yer on~ hope to see u on'ice this year arrrr.. (today is talk like a pirate day)

We at Fixed Pin Publishing do our best to produce the best guidebooks possible and to have a positive influence on the climbing community. We were faced with a difficult decision on whether or not to include Devil’s Head in our comprehensive South Platte guidebook. Devil’s Head is completely surrounded by other crags that are within the South Platte and are not included in any in-print guidebook. So in the end, we decided to include the area. Over the last four years, the three authors have logged nearly 1,000 days researching the new book, including climbing the routes, talking to developers, talking to land managers to hear their concerns, and reading back issues of magazines and old books to find “forgotten” routes. So those here worrying about plagiarism and accuracy can rest assured that we have done our own independent research. We have discussed this issue with Tod at great lengths in the past and are more than happy to speak with him again if he has any concerns.

In addition, Fixed Pin has a long tradition of giving back to the communities where we publish guidebooks. This includes donating profits to local climbing coalitions, replacing hardware, and organizing trail days. For the Poudre Canyon book, we are donating 100% of profits to help Craig Luebben’s daughter pay for college. This year we have given over $8,000 to the fund. This book is no different and we look forward to giving back to the South Platte as much as possible. The authors have already personally replaced dozens of anchors in the Platte and helped negotiate a more climber-friendly raptor closure at the Cathedral Spires.

Our intention is to write the best guidebook to the South Platte that we can and we hope that you enjoy our hard work.

Respectfully,

Jason Haas

Tony B wrote: This is exactly the problem with people calling plagiarism. It has a very specific definition. If I am not mistaken, there has been a lawsuit over it (Table Mountain... the previous guides, not Jason's) and there was a cash reward, as I understand it. But if there is no plagiarism, there is nothing illegal going on. Why are we operating under the assumption that there has been plagiarism?...

I wasn't operating under that assumption. I was responding to the suggestion that there may be some story no one knew that would make it ok for someone to poach from another author's book.

Based on Jason's well-stated response, it appears there was a bunch of unnecessary debate on this. If the other side of the story was simply that the authors had, in fact, climbed the routes and done all of their own research, the debate could have been brought to a close pretty quickly.

There has been a lot said in this thread and in other forums previously. I think the posts tell most of the aspects of the story & there were a few sort of harsh comments. I will say for myself that when I give my word I live up to it, always have & always will. For me, "researching" the guidebook, ahem, climbing the routes and actually producing the guidebook is the easy part. The hard part is what Will described in his earlier post. Also, I had a guidebook widely available on the Front Range for over 10 years before the current one, contact info available through the Access Fund website throughout that time period and later here at MP, so if someone didn't get their FA info in my book, it's because they didn't forward it, or forgot it. Furthermore, ALL of the proceeds from past and current Devil's Head guidebooks have gone back into the climbing community and I think it should stay that way.

Thanks Jason.

Get those books out! *drool

"Rampart Range Rocks" by Tod Anderson

How does one get a copy of this guide?

I know Todd has done massive amounts of work at Devil's Head, but the idea that this should give him exclusive rights to guidebook writing is silly. Lot's of people write guidebooks, tell me one other popular area that only has a single guidebook author and I would tell you there is an opportunity. It's great that he donates his proceeds, but that does not change the fact that we as consumers should have the ability to choose. As I see it guidebook authors often build upon the the previous books and get better.

Having seen the voracious appetite Jason Haas has for climbing every single route at a cliff, even the scruffy ones that probably have not seen a second ascent, I can guarantee you that he and his partners are/have been tearing up Devil's Head. Also considering that Jason climbs at least a number grade harder than Todd I think he will be able to give good descriptions for routes that Todd probably wouldn't even touch.

It is good to get different views on climbs, after all it is a very subjective sport. Different authors have different strengths and have the ability to speak to different audiences. The idea that one person can make the ultimate guide is silly, it's only the ultimate until the next one comes along. While the new S. Platte guide might hurt Todd's sales a bit ( although honestly I think they will market to different audiences) in the long term it is sure to make his book in future additions more complete.

Kevin Stricker wrote:I know Todd has done massive amounts of work at Devil's Head, but the idea that this should give him exclusive rights to guidebook writing is silly. Lot's of people write guidebooks, tell me one other popular area that only has a single guidebook author and I would tell you there is an opportunity. It's great that he donates his proceeds, but that does not change the fact that we as consumers should have the ability to choose. As I see it guidebook authors often build upon the the previous books and get better. Having seen the voracious appetite Jason Haas has for climbing every single route at a cliff, even the scruffy ones that probably have not seen a second ascent, I can guarantee you that he and his partners are/have been tearing up Devil's Head. Also considering that Jason climbs at least a number grade harder than Todd I think he will be able to give good descriptions for routes that Todd probably wouldn't even touch. It is good to get different views on climbs, after all it is a very subjective sport. Different authors have different strengths and have the ability to speak to different audiences. The idea that one person can make the ultimate guide is silly, it's only the ultimate until the next one comes along. While the new S. Platte guide might hurt Todd's sales a bit ( although honestly I think they will market to different audiences) in the long term it is sure to make his book in future additions more complete.

Oh, Hello Kevin. I recognize your name from Jason’s article. While your contributions to the south platte are recognized there (and most likely in Jason’s book as well) they are part of a very large list of first ascentionists and developers over an extremely large area (some of which were also mentioned in the same article). Whereas, Devils Head is a rather small area in comparison with a very small list of first ascentionists and developers with Tod being both for the majority of the routes there. And to have no mention of his name or his book in that article (or the new South Platte Book if Jason’s keeps behaving this way) is disrespectful and deceitful to say the least. The article’s lack of citation for Devils Head was so bad that even the Editor in Chief of Climbing felt the need to apologize to Tod directly and publicly on this forum.
As for the subjectivity of our sport, it’s going to be hard for Jason to build upon a previous book that is less than a year old. As stated earlier in this forum, Tod has gathered beta from many climbers on that area for the last 20 years for his book which has been in print for 3 editions now (one really nice one). I’m not sure what you mean by getting different views of the climbs at Devils Head, other than to try to downgrade routes. I had no idea that Jason climbed a full number grade harder than Tod, not to mention everyone else that has climbed and contributed to Devils Head. I’m curious to see if Jason actually has contributed to a single rout to Devils Head (there is plenty of stone up there) or if his contributions will subjective like our sport.
I wonder if 11-mile mile canyon will be in the South – South Platte Book (but I don’t know who climbs harder, Jason or Ben)?

BASE1361 wrote:"Rampart Range Rocks" by Tod Anderson How does one get a copy of this guide?

Available at most shops along the Front Range including REI.

BASE1361 wrote:"Rampart Range Rocks" by Tod Anderson How does one get a copy of this guide?

I have a copy that I don't use anymore after we moved. I will pass it on if you cover shipping. :)

Here's my concern. Almost every other sport area was developed by several different groups of developers. Thus, any guidebook is a compilation of the beta from dozens of people, and is often a collaborative effort. The main motivation of publishing the guide also tends to be more of a altruistic effort of simply helping folks get around more efficiently.
So now if Jason has decided to include the sport routes up there in his book, which is about a 98% predominantly Trad area; that would seem a bit cynically opportunistic. I can tell both sides are not willing to divulge whatever conversations/agreements they've had, which is unfortunate. The worst part is that I get enough of the cutthroat, "its just business" bullshit during my workday. I hate seeing it infiltrate our community.
There is a lot of trad to report on about Devils Head. In my explorations I have come across old rusty pins in really obscure places. If Jason has some stories to get out, I think that would be great.

Jason,

You talk of stewardship but you have done NOTHING in this regards with Devils Head. Yet you have chosen to profit from it. In the process of doing so you are taking funds/profits that would be directly returned to the area in the form of new routes, updated bolts, and anchors. This, in my opinion, constitues guidebook carpetbagging. Your work with the Poudre guide and Cathedral Spires are not relevant to this issue. I'm glad you've replaced dozens of anchors. Considering the tat I've seen in the Platte I'm sure there's still more. But you did not do that at Devils Head. You merely climbed routes that you most probably used Tod's book to find (other than the trad crag off jackson creek rd). And contrary to what Tony said, there are numerous trad lines interspersed amongst the sport lines documented in Rampart Range Rocks.

You state you "have discussed this issue with Tod at great lengths in the past and are more than happy to speak with him again if he has any concerns."
I know personally that he has contacted you within the last 3 weeks since the article came out. I checked with him last night and he and has NOT received a reply. Why is that?

Derek Lawrence wrote: And contrary to what Tony said, there are numerous trad lines interspersed amongst the sport lines documented in Rampart Range Rocks.

I'm being misunderstood or misquoted here... I didn't mean to say that Tod didn't publish any trad lines, but he certainly didn't publish some of them.

Tony, this is the comment you made that i refer too (page 1)

"I was referring to DH and I think you know that.
Putting out a guide with just sport and not the obvious cracks between and putting out a book with the cracks and not the sport in between are equally non-comprehensive. Trad climbers probably want a book with both. "

Perhaps I misunderstood your statement

Derek Lawrence wrote:Tony, this is the comment you made that i refer too (page 1) "I was referring to DH and I think you know that. Putting out a guide with just sport and not the obvious cracks between and putting out a book with the cracks and not the sport in between are equally non-comprehensive. Trad climbers probably want a book with both. "

I see how that could be misunderstood. The comment was more directly about how Jason's book would be if he omitted all sport routes. Todd only omitted some trad routes and trad cliffs. I wouldn't have thought that anyone would expect that I was trying to convince them that the book didn't have in it what they can open and find in it. And yes, I have one of Tod's books and it has trad routes in it... but in some cases even shows anchors on cracks that are not named/described.

The idea that 'DH is surrounded by other walls and it's in the same part of the state so we'll include DH' argument is not legitimate. I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but it doesn't appear to be working.

Jason, the way you are going about your guidebook and including DH is NOT HAVING A POSITIVE INFLUENCE ON THE COMMUNITY!!!!
Isn't that obvious? This is one of your core values.
Three (3) pages of upset climbers....looks like your company is wholly failing to uphold your values.

FixedPin - Please tackle the issue at hand rather than giving us your company's mission statement; what does your company plan to do to rectify this situation? Its obvious how Tod and co. feel. I would suppose it would be somewhat easy to remove DH; copy/cut.

Where does 11 Mile fit in with all this, btw?

Chris Cavallaro wrote:Jason, the way you are going about your guidebook and including DH is NOT HAVING A POSITIVE INFLUENCE ON THE COMMUNITY!!!! Isn't that obvious? This is one of your core values. Three (3) pages of upset climbers....looks like your company is wholly failing to uphold your values. (...) Its obvious how Tod and co. feel.

One page of upset climbers... at most. By my count, 9, including Tod. There are a lot of repeat posters. And some that are only upset about the attempted lynching that occurred based on assumptions that were unfounded and before any attempt to get the story was even made.

Upset about the book including Devil's Head:
Dave M.
Chris C
Tom R (?)
Bill B
Mike L
Todd A
Rags
Tod (Tzilla)
Derek L

Not Upset about the book including Devil's Head:
Wankel7
Tim D.
Blake H
Richard M
Slim
Tony B
Dougald M.
Kirra
Base
Crag Dweller
Jack Roberts
Jason Haas
Phil L
Kevin S
Darren M
Jason H
Mono
John L
Ben S (even if it had included 11 mile)
RyanO
AlKing

Hard to tell:
Percious

I do note that most of the people who are upset are friends of Tod's. So I don't think it represents the climbing community in general. I think it represents Tod and his circle of friends.

The only legitimate question here is: Is there plagiarism? The answer is no. If you don't like a particular book, don't buy it. If you want a magazine article about how awesome you are, you're going to have to write it yourself.

When is the Stewart Green, Dave Pegg, Jon Thesenga,..., lynching?

Does this all mean that I can use the information in the upcoming SPlatte guidebook to find the never before published crags and routes and publish my own book?