Guides Adding Bolts

Not a big fan of the idea. Just because you're a guide, it doesn't mean you can add unnecessary bolted belay stations. It's happening more and more, thoughts?

Can you give some examples? I know of few, if any classic guided routes out this way that have bolted belays. Otherwise, I agree, the West is not Chamonix, and the style/ethics of the FA team must be respected.

Here in the Wasatch (Utah), Mt. Olympus west slabs, the Gate Buttress & other areas of Little Cottonwood Canyon. Some of these were added to existing classics.

Yeah that's lame.

What company is responsible? Exum? Has the community voiced their concerns to reduce future bolting of "guide routes"? I think (and hope) there would be outrage if some of the RMNP guided classics were altered from their natural state just to accomodate guided parties.

A lot of climbs are bolted to accomidate heavy traffic and/or guided party's. Ice climbing is notorius for that, you can almost always V-thread but may stations are bolted. V-threads cause more garbage though. Is it OK the bolt rap stations that have natural anchors after the FA?
(@ Kevin) Didn't the Petit in RMNP get bolt anchors after years of natural raps. Also remember that guides are out more than most hobby climbers and typically put some thought into the anchors and placement and use quality gear.

Seems like lots of bolted belays and raps get added for convenience. I suppose some of might be from guides. I had heard the same about the Petit.

Seems like convenience bolts for protection are more rare. In WA, the south arete of south early winter spire (II 5.2) had a bolt added to a 10' 4th class traverse. It was rumored to have been added by guides, but I dont have direct knowledge.

I am opposed to convenience bolts, unless they are convenient for me :) Rarely have a been upset about coming a across a bomber 2 bolt rap anchor, regardless of who placed it (save the trees, less rotten tat). Belay anchors on multipitch are more contentious. Protection bolts even more so.

Kevin:

Exum asked one climber to add rap stations to the West Slabs route on Mt. Olympus. Those stations didn't seem too bad. But recently, someone counted 19 stations! One fellow who isn't guiding legally has been responsible for some if not much of these added bolts.

One of the reasons this really bothers me is that guides are teaching new climbers to almost expect bolted belays everywhere. As these climbers gain experience, the whole mind set will become more and more accepting of bolts everywhere. It's important for some trad routes to be left completely in their natural state.

I agree with Brain, The routes should be left in their natural state and not be altered to fit someone's whim or convenience . I think it is important to learn the skills necessary to both go up and down a climb. The classics should definitely be left alone. I think I know of at least one of the climbs that has new bolts on it and it should not have been altered. There are plenty of ways to get off this route without the new bolts.
Dallen

Stephen Berwanger wrote:A lot of climbs are bolted to accomidate heavy traffic and/or guided party's. Ice climbing is notorius for that, you can almost always V-thread but may stations are bolted. V-threads cause more garbage though. Is it OK the bolt rap stations that have natural anchors after the FA? (@ Kevin) Didn't the Petit in RMNP get bolt anchors after years of natural raps. Also remember that guides are out more than most hobby climbers and typically put some thought into the anchors and placement and use quality gear.

They may be out more than "hobby" climbers,, but not more than people for whom it is a lifestyle. I find most guides to be douchebags, but thats just me, I guess. Guides have no right to alter routes, and I would pull the bolts in a hurry, and deliver them to the companies front door.

Unwarranted. Unwanted. Unnecessary. Unacceptable.

Zero acountability.

Dear Mister Convenience Driller..You know who you are, WE know who you are...for the love of god...please stop.

If I were a guide and constantly faced losing gear because of forced retreats in bad weather I would side w/Loophole. The bolts are at belays only and on climbs that are for the most part non-hardman territory....so what is the huge problem? Most gear is considered booty and gets expensive to keep replacing. Nobody is turning these climbs into sport routes and no, it's not the start. Bolts are far better than tat, and we have enough of that considering all of the fixed pieces that get stuck in places. If done in moderation, I would have to side with the guides on this issue. But since I'm basicaly a nobody, you boys will have to work it out. Good luck! Anyway, how many of you so called hardmen out there will lower off and clean others gear that gets stuck, (and I mean sutck!!) off of pitches. The answer is not too many of you, since I've clipped alot of it in my past!!!! Or doesn't that change the nature of the climb since it's in the middle of the pitch and probably at the crux? just sayin.

Tea wrote: Unwarranted. Unwanted. Unnecessary. Unacceptable. Zero acountability. Dear Mister Convenience Driller..You know who you are, WE know who you are...for the love of god...please stop.

+ 1 ga-jillion. Unfortunately this person is less-than-stable and prone to some serious snappage, military style. Might be best at this point to just clean up his messes and avoid confrontation. Did I just say that?

I love bolted belays. I wish all climbs had them. Climbing hard and long trad lines only to find the pro you have left doesn't build a safe anchor blows. You have no choice to either risk it or to rap. What if the pitch is to long to rap? your fucked (lumpys ridge). I for one don't like BS anchor systems and it doesn't matter how many ball nuts or mini cams you have when you building with zero stance on some chausy boo boo micro crack system. Being a guide though in no way shape or form gives you the right to bolt something. If its some BS top rop stop off the grid where the boyscouts go then whatever but if its someone else FA they better ask to retro bolt.

Cota wrote: They may be out more than "hobby" climbers,, but not more than people for whom it is a lifestyle. I find most guides to be douchebags, but thats just me, I guess. Guides have no right to alter routes, and I would pull the bolts in a hurry, and deliver them to the companies front door.

Maybe your hostile attitude towards guides comes on so heavy when you meet guides that they recipicate and treat you just as you treat them.

It is a bummer when routes are altered to accomodate ease of use or to make a route less committing. I think it's funny that it gets slammed on guides as being the problem. It always makes me laugh when a few guides make some bad calls how people will lump most guides in with them.

leo costillo wrote:I love bolted belays. I wish all climbs had them. Climbing hard and long trad lines only to find the pro you have left doesn't build a safe anchor blows. You have no choice to either risk it or to rap. What if the pitch is to long to rap? your fucked (lumpys ridge). I for one don't like BS anchor systems and it doesn't matter how many ball nuts or mini cams you have when you building with zero stance on some chausy boo boo micro crack system. Being a guide though in no way shape or form gives you the right to bolt something. If its some BS top rop stop off the grid where the boyscouts go then whatever but if its someone else FA they better ask to retro bolt.

Good job of proving Brian's point. You can't cope with Lumpy? Wow, times are hard.

Kevin Landolt wrote:I think (and hope) there would be outrage if some of the RMNP guided classics were altered from their natural state just to accomodate guided parties.

Yeah...remember the ongoing 'Birds of Fire' debate? Also, I was up the petit in '08, there were no bolted belays, just raps. There was, however, a ton of fixed gear that could be removed. UK current conditions.

It's happened a few places at Joshua Tree.......it's very rare......a couple of crags out of 8000 climbs.....it's pissing in the ocean....no big deal.

I'm not saying people should be adding bolts against the wishes of the FFA parties, (unless there is a very strong community consensus) but if a neat, safe, 2 bolt anchor with quicklinks/rings is put in to replace a rat's nest of slings or funky pins, or to keep people from topping out on fragile cliff tops and walking down, I'm all for it. I think some anti anchor rabidness is really misplaced, and the concern should instead go towards bolted up zero star routes that are thrown up at many areas and fixing trails to reduce erosion, and cleaning up the unsightly and unsafe tat left on a lot of trad routes.

M Sprague wrote:I'm not saying people should be adding bolts against the wishes of the FFA parties, (unless there is a very strong community consensus) but if a neat, safe, 2 bolt anchor with quicklinks/rings is put in to replace a rat's nest of slings or funky pins, or to keep people from topping out on fragile cliff tops and walking down, I'm all for it. I think some anti anchor rabidness is really misplaced, and the concern should instead go towards bolted up zero star routes that are thrown up at many areas and fixing trails to reduce erosion, and cleaning up the unsightly and unsafe tat left on a lot of trad routes.

I was going to post, but this one pretty much sums up my feelings on the issue.

Jim Gloeckler wrote:If I were a guide and constantly faced losing gear because of forced retreats in bad weather I would side w/Loophole. The bolts are at belays only and on climbs that are for the most part non-hardman territory....so what is the huge problem? Most gear is considered booty and gets expensive to keep replacing. Nobody is turning these climbs into sport routes and no, it's not the start. Bolts are far better than tat, and we have enough of that considering all of the fixed pieces that get stuck in places. If done in moderation, I would have to side with the guides on this issue. But since I'm basicaly a nobody, you boys will have to work it out. Good luck! Anyway, how many of you so called hardmen out there will lower off and clean others gear that gets stuck, (and I mean sutck!!) off of pitches. The answer is not too many of you, since I've clipped alot of it in my past!!!! Or doesn't that change the nature of the climb since it's in the middle of the pitch and probably at the crux? just sayin.

Sorry, but 19 stations on the west slabs is certainly turning the climb into a sport route. When I climbed the route, I certainly didn't place 19 pieces of gear on the whole route and I certainly am not a bold climber. with that many stations all you would need to do the route would be quickdraws.

The west slabs also has a great walkoff (from what I've heard) so no tat is needed, and as far as fixed gear goes, in my experience it almost always either gets cleaned eventually or is damaged to the point of being useless.

As for gate buttress and other areas, they all have adequate rap stations and do not need any other convienience anchors.

Food for thought

Bolted rappel stations added after the FA:

Fudd Crack, Superslab, The Great White Icicle, Under the Skirt, The Italian Arete, Bushwhack Crack P1, Callitwhatyouplease, Mexican Crack, Hand Jive, Bong Eater, The Coffin P1, Razor's Edge, Pentapitch P1,P4&P5, Variety Delight P1, Variety Delight P2, Over Easy, Superslab P1, Beckey's Wall P1&P2, Satan's Corner, Tarzan P1&P2, Cranial Prophalactic.

None of these were added by a guide or the FA party... just random local climbers. Little Cottonwood Canyon used to be a garbage pit of brightly colored webbing on every little bush. More than one climber has been killed rappelling from these time bombs. Not any more.