Running and Climbing..

I recently started running, a lot. I was in the creek a few weekends ago and it was snowing. A girl who was in our group who has run 4 or 5 marathons suggested we go running since we wouldnt be climbing, we ended up doing a 5 or so mile trail run that morning and since it was still snowing, we did about 7 that night.

Previously I had done some running but only 3 and 4 miles at a time, something clicked this time however and I really dug the shit out of running 5 and 7 miles, the runners high, boosted endorphins, the all around feelgoods etc etc.

Since that day I have been running 6 or 7 miles every other day. I am not a lanky build, I build muscle very easily, and also put weight on easily, I have been bouldering throughout the winter to train for strength and am now transitioning into endurance for the summer, but with all the running I have noticed my muscle composition drastically leaning out, and my bouldering and climbing seem to be suffering slightly. Is there anyone else who successfully balances running and climbing? How do you do it? Any helpful suggestions?

Getting enough protein? A post run recovery drink might be a good thing all around esp if the running is all "new" calories burning compared to your previous level of exercise.

I do 50 and 100 trail/mountain ultras. The key is to focus on the running in phases. Get psyched up for a race or upcoming big run, then do it and get back on climbing. I do these phases a few times a year and each time the climbing comes back stronger. It keeps me injury free and psyched up to train. Also, when I am running alot, I eat pretty much all day long. This keeps the muscle on. I never stop climbing training all together. I still boulder on my woody, do upper body lifts, take weekend climbing trips and use a hangboard. It doesn't take much to maintain climbing strength.

I guess I don't run enough to lean out (I wish!) I have been running 26 miles one week and 13 the next. I have stayed the same weight and am finally starting to get out of my platue in climbing. Looking forward to Alpine season soon!

i had a similar experience as you. i thought i didn't like running. but, i did it because it's a great way to maintain fitness and, unlike all my other hobbies, it's extremely simple in terms of the equipment and terrain needed. but, then, i went on a long run and realized, it's not that i don't like running. it's that i don't like running short distances. that's just painful. but, get beyond 5 miles and the endorphins start to kick in.

so, anyway, i'm going to have to disagree with those who're saying you should reduce the frequency and/or distance of your runs. on a weekly basis, my running ranges from 15 to 25 miles and my climbing is still improving. i realize everyone is different, but i don't think it's the running that is affecting your climbing ability.

you'd have be running a helluva a lot more than you are for your body to start cannibalizing muscle mass in reaction to running. what you are likely experiencing is a reduction in body fat that is causing you to appear leaner. obviously, that's a good thing.

are you running instead of bouldering/climbing? if so, the reduction in climbing may be the culprit. if you don't have enough time to do both, it becomes a question of priorities.

are you allowing yourself enough time to recover between climbing workouts? if not, you may simply need to give yourself more recovery time. high-protein recovery drinks, as mentioned, help with this.

are you getting less support out of your legs when climbing because of fatigue from running? that's very possible and, if so, the solution is to adjust your schedule so that you're not climbing while your legs are still fatigued. run in the morning on the day before you climb rather than in the evening. that way, your legs have a full 24 hours to recover.

I run three days a week, 8m, 11m, 18m for marathon training. I climb two to three days a week. The problem is I don't think you can train hard for both at once. I'm pretty useless as far as climbing goes on the days that I run. Long runs often require a rest day afterwards. And I suspect that I'm generally worn out when running a lot even on the days that I climb and don't run. But most importantly I love running and climbing and I want to do both even if I do both at a level below I could do just one of them.

spencerparkin wrote:This is where I load a pack up with about 30 to 40 pounds of water, and then go lug it up the mountain. This seems to me to be both a strength and endurance training exercise, and I think it helped my distance running, and my distance running helped this. They complemented one another, in other words. Maybe you have to do both cardio and strenth training together to be really good at either one? I don't know.

Your "lugs" aren't really strength training, just more intense versions of cardiovascular training.

You don't have to do both to be really good at either one. In fact, they can interfere with each other (although the research is less and less clear about exactly how much, if at all...there are so many variables, you see, to manipulate).

In general, strength training can improve aerobic performance, although not so much the other way around, especially where power is involved. Large amounts of cardio training definitely seem to interfere with ability to produce power.

People advocating high protein drinks as a recovery mechanism...well not so much. High carbohydrate intake within an hour after running would help you more. Having a mix of both has also been shown to be very beneficial.

Recovery is a complex mix of how trained you are RIGHT NOW, rest, nutrition, training volumes and frequencies, individual physical stress capacity, etc.

My alternate suggestion is to try your running and climbing on the same days if you have time and then take entire rest days off between. Concurrent training studies show that this strategy can often provide sufficient rest.

Aerili wrote: People advocating high protein drinks as a recovery mechanism...well not so much. High carbohydrate intake within an hour after running would help you more. Having a mix of both has also been shown to be very beneficial.

Recovery drink 3 or 4 to one carbs to protein. I make my own with malto and whey but you can buy them or whatever.

And I agree recovery is complex. I recover the fastest when training a lot assuming you keep the right balance of rest and enough fuel in the body. Stuff like three weeks straight mountain biking 150miles/day with no rest days shows just how magical the recovery systems of the body can be.

I started climbing while in college on the XC team. I was putting in about 50-60 miles a week. I probably climbed 4-5 times a week, and I never noticed any weaknesses in either. I was climbing about 5.11+ and ran 32:09 for 10k that year. I just made sure I did plenty of push-ups, guts, and stretching. I also had a terrible diet though. Maybe it was just youth.

chris deulen wrote:ran 32:09 for 10k that year.

Much respect!

I would suggest buying a heart rate monitor, and making sure you aren't running too many miles at too high of a heart rate. If you want to stay strong for climbing, too much anaerobic running may be sabotaging your strength.

If you are running with your heart rate too high, above your aerobic threshold, you become anaerobic, and your body can no longer burn fat efficiently for energy. Instead, as Crag Dweller and Aerili mentioned, your body turns to cannibalizing protein, aka, muscle cells, for fuel.

When I got a heart rate monitor watch and chest strap, I was amazed to find I felt great running long distances at 180-190bpm, but I lost a lot of muscle mass and strength in the process. A little anaerobic training is good, but too much makes it difficult to fully recover.

I have been running fairly consistently 4-5 miles 3 days a week and have still been feeling strong, its just recently that I have been running 7+ miles 3-4 days a week. Its been a few weeks now and I feel like I have found the right balance of running vs climbing, Im running now on my days off climbing, and eating a lot more, I think that was the biggest issue, I wasnt getting near enough carbs or protien, and I wasnt allowing near enough recovery time.

As for 20+ miles a week being a big step, I feel like my level of fitness is high, probably higher than most, and I feel great running that many miles, I dont feel like I have to push myself that hard during, and I am finishing the runs feeling like I could go much further, basically what I feel is that my recruitment strength is very high, but I have to stay well stocked with protein and carbs to sustain it, when I run I feel like I am depleting those stores regardless of what I eat. Does that sound right?

JLP wrote: This is nonsense. A highly trained athlete can run anaerobic for about 7 mins. A clueless newbie - probably 90 seconds. In that time, you're burning sugar. It's nice you bought a HR monitor, but it takes a lot of training time and experience with where your lactate threshold is at to make use of it. Those numbers and that pretty watch can sure be mesmerizing, though - eh?

Nonsense? It's obvious you don't know what you're talking about regarding physiology, JLP, nor have you looked into the last 15+ years of heart rate training. Of course, you burn sugar (namely, muscle glycogen) when you become anaerobic. But when that's gone, you don't pass out, you begin to catabolize protein. From muscle cells. That's what we're talking about.

And of course a heart rate monitor is not going to be a fail-safe indicator of aerobic threshold, but it's a good guideline of how hard the cardiovascular system is working. You should try one out sometime.

I was thinking about throwing a little running into my training, and since you're all experts this seems like it might be a good place to get some advice.

I'm 5'11", 170lbs, and consider myself in pretty good shape. However, I played a game of ultimate frizbee yesterday and felt like i was going to pass out from running around. Also, controlling my heartrate and breathing on long endurance climbs can be difficult sometimes.

I havent done any running in the past, but feel that I could drop a few % body fat and improve my aerobic conditioning.

In your experience, will this help my climbing?
What kind of routine would you recommend to accomplish my goals withought taking too much time and energy away from climbing?
distance? intensity? frequency?

any info will help!

"Climbing" is a broad term. Running will obviously be more beneficial training for folks who enjoy long approaches, heavy packs, long routes, cold temps - i.e. alpine climbing, as opposed to someone who's pushing their technical grades at the local crag. That seems to be a neglected point here in the training forum.

When I was training for a marathon (3:31 for my first and only) I was running four days a week. Three 8mi days and the fourth day alternated between interval workouts (1mile repeats) and a long distance day. I was still able to climb 5.12- sport routes. (Ones I had wired).

However, I wasn't able to make any progess in climbing. It was more training for running and maintenance of climbing fitness. In addition, I saw no weight loss, which I was hoping for. For the whole three and half month training cycle I weighed +/- 150lbs.

Even after the marathon training was over it took a while to get my high end climbing fitness back.

So all in all I have not been convinced that running is a good compliment to climbing.

(Disclaimer: I was a competitive runner from 12yrs old to 18yrs old, and after 6 cross country seasons, 6 outdoor track seasons and 3 indoor track seasons, with close to ten meets per season I was burned out and have had issues with running ever since.)

This next bit is for Krys:
These days I have seen some big improvements in my climbing performance after practicing bikram yoga, through increased strength and flexibility. In addition, it has made maintaining a lower weight(+/- 142)much easier. It helps maintain the cardio, and since there is importance placed on breathing while performing the postures, I have found that I am more actively engaged in my breathing while climbing (in other words I'm not holding my breath unconsciously anymore). Last but not least, I have found that my concentration and focus have improved also. During peak climbing season I go three to four times a week (I don't usually take rest days).

Ryando Smithman wrote:Also, Krys, I recommend doing pullups. Alot of them. All different ways. I generally do 35 to 40 after I wake up, and try to get in 100 or more a day.

With all due respect, this is ridiculous. Doing 40-100+ pull-ups a day will not make you a better climber, increase cardiovascular endurance, nor assist much in losing body fat.

but aerili it will give you tendonitis, which is kind of like being a better climber ;)

anyway, i remember there being a debate of sorts about whether running is kind of bad for elvis leg. does anybody remember anything about this? maybe from 'performance rock climbing'? wondertwins, do you remember anything about this? seems like maybe one of you opted for swimming instead?

old age will test that theory, young man. although i definitely agree with the water/hydration thing, as well as eating immediately afterwards.

Regarding tendonitis, any climber who wants to avoid tendonitis (and arthritis later on) should be taking glucosamine sulfate NOW. Don't wait til your joints ache to take it. Here in the great USA our food is bereft of any natural glucosamine sources (shark fin soup, texture surprises in our Chicken McNuggets, etc.) So if you want to take care of your connective tissue, don't wait til it fails...

Ryando Smithman wrote:Proper stretching my friends, and lots of water, helps prevent and subdue tendonitis =)

Subdue? Perhaps these things are but a small component of treatment. Prevent? ...No.

Hansel wrote:Regarding tendonitis, any climber who wants to avoid tendonitis (and arthritis later on) should be taking glucosamine sulfate NOW. Don't wait til your joints ache to take it. Here in the great USA our food is bereft of any natural glucosamine sources (shark fin soup, texture surprises in our Chicken McNuggets, etc.) So if you want to take care of your connective tissue, don't wait til it fails...

Glucosamine doesn't do anything for tendonitis. Glucosamine may help articular cartilage damage, but that is something quite separate from tendonitis. Cartilage is INSIDE a joint. Tendonitis occurs to tissues which lie OUTSIDE a joint.