"Aging" climbers

Kevin Stricker wrote:I'm thinking the "Experts" on the shy side of 50 should just shut your traps... The only "Decline" is in your minds.....

You sure about that? I'll check back in another decade after you're 27% percent older than you are today. :)

Kevin Stricker wrote:go climb rocks.

Agreed!

I'm not takin' it lying down. Nor are the two tanner, older gentlemen next to me.

Kevin Stricker wrote:I'm thinking the "Experts" on the shy side of 50 should just shut your traps and go climb rocks. The only "Decline" is in your minds.....

But my doc keeps telling me it's rheumatic... Hey George, how old were you when you got your artifical hip?
I thought I'd last forever, but it turns out I was wrong, and I'm not even an elite level climber. Not even close.

Kevin, let's not be silly. Decline in sports performance happens to even the deniers... and happens before 50. Otherwise the olymipcs and pro sports would be full of older, wiser athletes, rather than people in the prime of their sport.
For males, strength generally peaks at ~25, with testosterone. Endurance holds on to peak levels for perhaps a decade later.

Tony B wrote:Hey George, how old were you when you got your artifical hip?

48 ... one year ago.

Hey, I thought one of the rules in Matt Samet's article was "Never take your shirt off after age 30!!" The above photo shows he is wrong!

My point is that unless you are in the 1% of climbers getting close to their genetic potential you have more room for improvement than you have excuses.

I doubt many 20 year olds on this site could keep up with Rodger Briggs for a day on the Diamond. There are only a couple climbers in the world who are as fast as Hans Florine, and any young bucks out there want to go toe to toe with Fred Nicole for a day of bouldering? These guys are in there 40's-60's, and still hitting it hard.

It seems that climbers use excuses like their age to placate their egos, but the truth is that almost everyone has plenty of room for improvement in their climbing young or old. If you decide to stop pushing it as hard to avoid injuries so be it....just don't blame it on your age. There are guys out there older than you pushing just as hard or harder.....

(edit: just for those who didn't catch my first post, I am specifically talking to the under 50 crowd ( most in their 30's-40's) who use their age as an excuse for not getting after it.)

Tony B wrote: Kevin, let's not be silly. Decline in sports performance happens to even the deniers... and happens before 50. Otherwise the olymipcs and pro sports would be full of older, wiser athletes, rather than people in the prime of their sport. For males, strength generally peaks at ~25, with testosterone. Endurance holds on to peak levels for perhaps a decade later.

Tony.....climbers are for the most part NOT pro athletes....Of course aging and decline happens....It just does not effect us climbers as much as we would like to make people believe.

As for the wiser-older....why do you think they stopped competing in the first place....it is called LIFE and most people start wanting to live it sooner or later. If you want to talk specifically to competition climbing (World Cup) then sure, I bet you would get a similar curve to that of many other competitive sports. The part where your theory falls to pieces is the fact that these ex-World Cup athletes go on to climb harder routes once they stop competing. Beth Rodden is a good example....just climbed one of the hardest cracks in the world at...GASP...30. Do you think she feels over the hill yet?

Interesting you mention Beth... I've heard that Tommy Caldwell is falling to peices. The amount of stress that get's put on your body when climbing that hard is pretty bad for you apparently. I wonder how much longer you will be reading about his "hard sends" as he approaches the older aging status. Also Beth is still fairly young and she's still pushing harder then before because she's right around her prime not yet past it. Neither Beth or Tommy are over 50(as far as I know) so I guess neither should qualify for the discussion.

Hell I don't even know why I'm here I'm not even 30, I just thought I would throw some perspective into the mix.

Age isn't the only factor, it's the amount of physical stress the body has had to deal with which will ultimately limit what we can do. If your as active as an olympian you will wear out as quickly as one too(most likely to be true no matter what activity you are talking about). I'm pretty active, I've put my body through my fair share of hell. I'm 25 and I don't even want to think about how I might feel at 50... OUCH! We are only designed to endure so much you know, were human not invincible, just like car's our parts wear out too. You know as active as you seem to be Kevin I'm suprised you don't already experience what I'm talking about. Do you still feel as good as when you were 18? I don't.

Also just like the stock market there are trends in everyday life, performance levels have trends too and I can tell you just like the stock market they can't always go up and keep going up forever! There will enevitably be a peak and a downward trend.

In the original post Matt Samet was quoted saying he was feeling old at 37, well...

I hve a friend who is thirty eight and breaking into the 5.14
i have another friend who is 52 and still getting FA's of 5.11+ off widths
I know several men in their forties who are still pushing 13's

I guess it come down to your willingness to train, how well you have taken care of your body, nd the like, also everyone ages differently.

Your body certainly doesnt get stronger over time, but you do learn a lot more in the way of technique, climbing styles, your strong point etc....

OK Kevin, I guess you are right...

The tendonitis in my fingers, blown ligaments in my right wrist, compartment syndrome in my right forearm, medial epicondalytis, subluxed shoulder, bone spur in my neck, arthritic knee's, broken talus and torn associated cartilage, as well as the weight gain while eating less, all of which did not exist when i was 25 and most of which did not exist when I was climbing 5.13+ in the mid 90's, are all a function of my lack of motivation. I have no more interest in bettering myself and my attempts to complete certain alpine goalsare only curtailed by my lack of really trying hard. I also have quit finding college cheerleaders attractive (its not that they think I"m an old guy) an d those wrinkles around my eyes, which I thought were a ntuarl lack of elasticity in older skin, were actually my lack of motivation.

I think you are in for a rude awakening... or maybe you haven't really tried hard yourself, as Tony alluded to on the first page, and thus won't be noticing a drop in skills.

Headline, July 1 2051; "Tiger Woods gets PGA win #100 on 72nd birthday as Federer sneaks past Roddick for 23rd Wimbledon title"

Again, I can't believe people actually played "devils advocate" about the effects of aging.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:OK Kevin, I guess you are right... The tendonitis in my fingers, blown ligaments in my right wrist, compartment syndrome in my right forearm, medial epicondalytis, subluxed shoulder, bone spur in my neck, arthritic knee's, broken talus and torn associated cartilage, as well as the weight gain while eating less, all of which did not exist when i was 25 and most of which did not exist when I was climbing 5.13+ in the mid 90's, are all a function of my lack of motivation. I have no more interest in bettering myself and my attempts to complete certain alpine goalsare only curtailed by my lack of really trying hard. I also have quit finding college cheerleaders attractive (its not that they think I"m an old guy) an d those wrinkles around my eyes, which I thought were a ntuarl lack of elasticity in older skin, were actually my lack of motivation. I think you are in for a rude awakening... or maybe you haven't really tried hard yourself, as Tony alluded to on the first page, and thus won't be noticing a drop in skills. Headline, July 1 2051; "Tiger Woods gets PGA win #100 on 72nd birthday as Federer sneaks past Roddick for 23rd Wimbledon title" Again, I can't believe people actually played "devils advocate" about the effects of aging.

Bitter, party of one.

Some people approach the rock with more finesse. It sounds like you ran face first straight into it for a couple decades. I have way less injuries and nagging pain, and that's with 100's of 13's, 400 BASE jumps, 900 skydives and a list to match anyone elses concerning surgery.

I do agree that the body does not heal up as well at an older age, just that, DAMN SAM, you sound like a bundle of duct tape and coathangers.

Do you have any extra meds you don't want?

Nah Hank, I'm not bitter. Not at all. Its what happens.

However, I get mad reading Kevin and friends saying in essence, "The reason you can't climb as hard is your not trying hard."
My motivation is still there when it can be, but it has been beaten down most of the time by pain.
Some people last a bit longer, but Hank, be serious, your not climbing as hard now as your were 15 years ago... if you hit the same numbers, your not doing it as often as you were then... and if you are then you are the anomaly the makes the rule.

I'd like to climb 5.14, but I get hurt everytime I really train hard. I have a number of alpine goals I have not dropped yet, but with my knee's and ankles as they are it seems like a long shot... my friends laugh at me when I try to run across the street.

As per the drugs, well, we can share, but I gotta take most of what I've got.

Sam, the point I was trying to make in my contribution to this thread was not about training as hard you can to keep up with young people. That is a great way to get hurt. It's about making intelligent use of what you have. If you have watched the standards jump in the past ten years so that teenage girls routinely onsight 13d, you know that climbing well isn't all about mutant strength and savage workouts. That was the theory back in the day but clearly can't be all true.

Maybe I have better genes (doubtful) or don't climb really hard by today's standard (so what) but I feel that there is no way that older climbers are actually held back by their potential level of physical fitness. I did plenty of 5.13s and 14s back in the 90s and early 2000s until I switched to bouldering and the number one thing holding me back has always been lack of free time. I feel confident that I could climb 5.14 with a bit more training but now I have other priorities and outlets for my free time besides hardcore sport climbing. That might change in the future. I am confident that my view is matched by many others out there. I am not playing devil's advocate about aging but pointing out how certain mindsets can create a climate of futility and weakness that sabotages any hope of improvement. If you think that your injuries/conditions are irreparable, I am genuinely sorry. Since you edited the book One Move Too Many..., you know better than anyone else what is achievable in that department.

Thanks Peter
OK< I came off as bitter and pissed... I guess I'm not really either. I simply stand by the fact that my body has changed in ways that I did not forsee, despite all my older friends going through it, and those changes are a fact of life. Tendons, joint capsules, bones all age, and reocvery times lengthen. You can alter your routine... you can look for 140 foot endurance 5.14's rather than 45 foot power routes and perhaps get away with it. But you can't out think father time. IN the end, all the changing-this and changing-that will not outdo what time does.

PErsonally, I could climb a lot better than I do. i could move to a climbing area that caters to my current strengths at this age. However, 10 years ago I did not have to do that. I could maintain the endurance and power working for specific strenght only part of the year. The reason I can't get away with it now is that I am older. As I age more, those ways of fudging it will also disapear.

I envy all like Hank and Peter and Kevin who perhaps don't feel they are aging. I know I am, and when I look at every other human being to ever take on sports as a way of life, I know I'm just following the path of life.

George Bell wrote:..one of the rules in Matt Samet's article was "Never take your shirt off after age 30!!"

To the fit guys out there, please break this rule.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:I envy all like Hank and Peter and Kevin who perhaps don't feel they are aging. I know I am, and when I look at every other human being to ever take on sports as a way of life, I know I'm just following the path of life.

Oh I'm aging allright, I just don't really care. Climbing has giving me so much over the last 27 years, it's kinda hard to get upset about any of it.

1. Thou shalt not whine about lost youth at age 37.
There are a million lines that you’ve still never tried.
2. Thou shalt not complain of your trifling body aches.
This is unseemly and nobody cares.
3. Thou shalt not say “Take” in haste.
Else be prepared for excruciating embarrassment, what with that ½” glue-in located directly opposite your navel.
4. Thou shalt not forget to train for power lest thou descend into wussness.
I’m all for footsy technique, but come on…
5. Thou shalt honor thy holy rest days.
Good advise to keep from those perky youth.
6. Thou shalt not doubt that if it’s overhanging, you are on route.
7. Thou shalt not hate on the current crop of fifty year old sport climbing badasses.
8. Thou shalt not forget to shun cunningly humble spray when tempted.
9. Thou shalt wax effusive about how much fun you’ve had earning your aches and pains.
10. Thou shalt not wear socks with thy rock shoes.

Hank, I also don't care that much. At moments I do, but if I really cared I WOULD move to another climbing area. The fact is I always find something to climb and have fun. My original point was that its hard to care when you end up injured, regularly, after you put forth a serious effort. I, I think like you Hank, reached my peak in sport climbing by training with Alex C. He was totally methodical. Diet, counter training, resistance training combined on a schedule with power training, icing elbows and fingers after a workout whether there was pain or not. No doubt we werne't trained as well as Olympic Biathletes, but we tried to have that level of focus. SInce I was borderline-injured all the time then, I know I would explode with that level of effort now.

Looking back through this, Kevin is right... you could still train and get better, but with a caveat. It has to be for less power and more endurance. You have to focus on the climbs which have the least impact on your body. My point with my first post was that the collection of injuries actually takes much of that will to improve out of you. OVer time, your body forces you to recognize you just should not do that.

But again, like you I dont care that much.

ANd to all that see a big fight here... maybe some anger. No, not at all. I view this as a conversation over coffee or beers. Kevin, if I came off pissed and assholish, please know I was being facetious and maybe jsut a little tired of hearing what I perceived as "no, its cus you just dont try anymore." Again, when I try, i get hurt, so I dont try.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote: I think like you Hank, reached my peak in sport climbing by training with Alex C. He was totally methodical. Diet, counter training, resistance training combined on a schedule with power training, icing elbows and fingers after a workout whether there was pain or not. No doubt we werne't trained as well as Olympic Biathletes, but we tried to have that level of focus. .

Awesome Sam, the strongest I've ever been physically was training with Alex Catlin, and yeah I was 27 years old and owned my own 10,000 sq. ft. rock gym. I had an 8 pack for a stomach with veins running through it.

My mental training really kicked in a few years ago, and then I melted it on too many death routes in Eldo. A fine time was had by all regardless.

Aging like a phine whine.

Fun stuff, Brian; brought a smile to my face.

Great thread and illuminating dialogue. Some apparently conflicting views aren't really that far apart:

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:I just can't believe people are actually arguing that they get physically better as they age. You dont. You simply learn to live with it.

Peter Beal wrote:the point I was trying to make...was not about training as hard you can to keep up with young people. That is a great way to get hurt. It's about making intelligent use of what you have. If you have watched the standards jump in the past ten years so that teenage girls routinely onsight 13d, you know that climbing well isn't all about mutant strength and savage workouts.

Still, Sam, Tony, and others hit a true note about time having unavoidable and cumulative effects. But Hank, Andy and others stress what, for me, is the truest note of all:

We should have fun on the ride.

Thanks for the follow-up Sam. I just want to add something to what you said here:

"I think like you Hank, reached my peak in sport climbing by training with Alex C. He was totally methodical. Diet, counter training, resistance training combined on a schedule with power training, icing elbows and fingers after a workout whether there was pain or not. No doubt we werne't trained as well as Olympic Biathletes, but we tried to have that level of focus. SInce I was borderline-injured all the time then, I know I would explode with that level of effort now."

I am convinced that the kind of training described above ultimately proves counterproductive in making progress through the grades in climbing. Maybe for a track and field athlete such a routine is necessary though I doubt it. But maybe that was the 90s, a time when climbers finally decided to train instead of just winging it. However the writing was on the wall for that style of training and the best evidence was in the video that came with Performance Rock Climbing (by the way still a very useful book) where Dale Goddard kept coming up short on Just Do It. Soon after that came out, Chris Sharma more or less walked the route and a bunch of others in Rifle, showing that grim determination and hours in the gym were not necessarily the key. That was a real watershed moment for American climbing and changed everyone's views on what it took to get better. Being borderline-injured and exhausted, even with a veiny 8-pack (Hank, ewww...)didn't prove sufficient. Methodical strenuous training has its uses but also its limits in climbing. Looking at Sharma, Graham, Nicole and so on, intuition and imagination, along with really strong fingers and good technique, proved more useful than testosterone and effort.

I really believe we are at a primitive level of understanding, even at the most basic physiological level, of what goes into climbing well. When climbers of whatever age really start going deeper into how the intricacies of movement, balance, friction, and gravity interact with the human physique, intellect and psychology, some truly remarkable things will happen. Instead of assuming that more power is the solution, it may be more helpful to look at it as a potential problem, especially if misused.