Desperately Seeking 8a

Here's my response to Jay's questions:

Easy question first: Since about 2003, when I started developing elbow tendonitis, I've made an effort to climb no more than every other day. This isn't always practical (El Cap, etc), but it generally is. This was the approach I used on Scarface. During a week of work I would climb Sat, Mon, Wed, Fri, Sunday.

For me, Scarface was an evolutionary process. I first got on the route in April 2005. I spent 4 days rope soloing, trying to see if I could do the moves. The route was well beyond me at that time, but I din't have a partner, so there wasn't anything else to climb, and I wanted to see what 5.14 felt like. Anyway, I couln't touch the mono move those first four days. I moved on, except that I added the mono sets to my hangboard regimen (oh ya, I do hangboard training). In March of 2006, I came back and worked the route for 5 more days. I was now able to do the mono move, as a deadpoint, but not regularly. I could do it consistently from a hang, but I was about 1 for 3 from the ground, and as the week wore on, my finger started to swell and ache. I had to take several rest days when the week was over. By the end of this week I could do all the moves regularly, but it was clear I lacked the power endurance to link the route.

Anyway, I came back for a week in March 07, and sent on day 4, after another year of working the hangboard (and doing some 4x4s for the PE). That time around the mono was automatic, and I could do it totally static. So, basically I trained for two years to do that move. There are other options. Most people deadpoint the move, so they don't need to be as strong, but it takes a lot more tries to send. Some people scum a second finger (see Ian Caldwell video on Smithrock.com), but that made it feel tweakier to me, and seemd low-percentage.

As for burns per day, I generally tried to do three burns a day, but usually the third burn was pretty worthless. The first half of the route is really powerful, and even if you pull through the mono, there are many other difficult lockoffs that require all of my power. Generally by my third burn I didn't have the power to make the lockoffs, so I was dynoing for everything, which won't work, since most of the holds are pockets, and you have to work your fingers in just right. Anyway, by the end of the process, I would only do two burns, or I would winch up to the slab for my third burn and work the 5.11 moves.

I did tape the base of my left middle finger from the get go. I never had any acute tweakage, but as stated above, there were some chronic effects. It was really only an issue in 2006, when I could 'sort-of' do the move, so I felt compelled to practice it several times per burn. In 2007, it was almost trivial, so I only did the move once per burn. If 2007 had gone like 2006, I would have taken two rest days in the middle opf the week (climb sat, mon, thur, sat). The other tape on that finger is actually to protect my skin. There's a sharp spike on the lip of the mono that gave me a huge flapper at one point. I think the tape makes the move slightly harder, but it saves the skin so you can try the route more times in a week.

Excellent posts ... keep it coming...

Thanks.

Kevin,
The comment about natural aptitude is very interesting. I've often wondered about that. I occasionally see these mutant kids in the gym that climb 5.13 when they're 12, and then by 19 they've lost interest and quit climbing. Obviously they could be pushing the limits, but they don't care; its not meaningful to them, because its trivial. They didn't have to invest anything to get good, so there's no return on the investment in terms of feeling really good about an accomplishment that they worked hard for.

But this doesn't sound like your situation. Obviously you still care, and want to improve.

I think a lot of us are perpetually walking the line with overuse injuries. I know I am. I've really learned to listen to my body, and rest accordingly. I think rest is extremely key, and often disregarded. Pro climbers are lauded for being "psyched". Well, we're all psyched, aren't we? Its not hard to be psyched, this isn't running around a track, its actually fun! What's hard is holding back, despite being psyched, so that your body can recover, so you can come back stronger.

I wonder if trad climbing is easy on your elbows. The nice thing about sport climbing is that you can back off at any time. Fear and danger won't force you to do something that isn't good for your body. (Ego and pride may)

I agree that resting is key! When I first started climbing I climbed way too much because I was so psyched. Now that I am in my 30's I find that I only get stronger when I climb fewer than 4 days a week. Currently 4 days a week is pure fantasy...I am psyched for a single good one! I think trad climbing is easier on my elbows because I spend more time over my feet. Also I am a big fighter, and am still learning to let go on harder routes.

So I am curious if you periodize your training and what that looks like for you. Also do you only rest one day after fingerboard workouts and how often do you work on the board.

Great story on Scarface...way to keep with it over the long haul and finally send! How many total burns do you think you did on the route?

I would guess around 25 burns, if you count the rope soloing, which was kinda worthless, except to help me understand what I needed to do to reach that level.

Anyway, I do periodize my training. I do 3 cycles per year, each cycle has 6 phases:

1. Local endurance (ARC from PRC) ~1-3 weeks
2. Hypertrophy (via hangboard workouts) ~4 weeks
3. Recruitment/Power (via bouldering & campusing) ~2-4 weeks
4. Power Endurance ~2-4 weeks
5. Peak Performance ~4-6 weeks
6. Rest ~1-3 weeks

I started out doing pretty much exactly what PRC recommends, but its morphed a bit over the years. Usually my PE training consists of just trying to redpoint projects, so there isn't much difference between #4 & #5. I've experimented with 4x4s in this phase, and found them to be very effective, but they seem to bring on a severe crash after the peak (like comming off a sugar high), so I don't plan to use them again unless I have a specific objective in mind that requires 100% of my PE capacity (which Scarface did).

During the hypertrophy phase I will do 7-9 hangboard workouts, each with ~72 hours of rest after. So I would do HB workouts on day 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, 25. My first power workout would be on day 28. Mike does this differently. He mixes in climbing days during his hangboarding phase in order to take max advantage of the weekends. I don't do any other climbing activities during this phase except warmup (by traversing around the gym for 15 minutes) prior to HB workouts. On the two rest days I do some form of cardio exercise (running, swimming, or cycling).

I agree with your theory about being on your feet when trad climbing. I had serious elbow problems several years ago, then I changed my climbing focus from overhanging jugfests to vertical technical routes, and the pain vanished. I also cut back on campusing and stopped lifting weights (dumbbell curls, dips, pullups, etc) so its hard to be sure which factor did the trick.

kevin.
so it sounds like you need to "work" routes more. that was a big hurdle for me (again not at the 13 level, but at the 12+ level) in that at first i did not understand working projects and did not enjoy it. once i got over that i learned to enjoy the process of the project. my last significant one (Naked Kill-12dR trad) was almost a couple dozen trys (lost count), with sometimes only 1-2 trys each day (to preserve the tendons). by redpoint time, i had enough endurance to get it on my 4th burn. i had it wired after about the first 6 trys, and the rest was keeping my shit together. but like slim mentioned, i am also not content with a redpoint unless it feels flawless, and have failed many times on stuff because i didnt bear down enough.

at any rate, it sounds like you heavily value the onsight. its pure, its fresh, it can be flawless. however, do not underestimate the tools you get in your toolbag on the redpoint. everything makes sense, and your onsight grade for other routes increases with it. the redpoint, even if it seems like a technicality at times, locks in that bodymemory which you can deploy on other routes.

youre in evergreen, right? you are very close to Primo Wall and Anarchy in Clear Creek. Have you done these routes? ignore all the bullshit about the ratings being soft they may or may not be, depends on who you ask, go there to train, in fact ignore the ratings. these two crags are condusive for good projecting. you may be surprised. if you want i can recommend some routes for you to work on.

now that we are on this topic, i was thinking about this thread today. first of all, i really do not like ratings... i think it limits you from the very beginning, in that it gives you an expectation, a preconcieved notion, about how hard or easy a route will be. so my question is for all you all, what are some local legitamate 8a's that can test Kevin (or anyone)?

i have seen Kevin climb, and i would almost put money on it (dont have any now, but i did just sell my truck, woo!) that, if i were to throw you on a "13", but i told you it was 12+, you would send fairly quickly. not intentionally trying to sandbag, even though for some reason i have a rep for that. :) south platte twelves are hard, albeit way different kind of climbing than sport.

i am sorry for all my babble. just let me know when to stop. but bottomline is i think you need a nice fat juicy proj to sink your teeth into. i have been waiting for a post like this. thanks again for all the info everyone. it helps us all.

Thanks for your replies guys.

Mark, with your training do you have variability ( ex. 2-4 weeks recruitment) based on how the training is going or based on your goals? SO would you plan this up front or adjust on the fly depending on how your body felt? 4 weeks of only fingerboarding sounds like something you want to build up to over time, what are your sets/reps like for these workouts?

Daren, I agree that projecting is a weakness of mine. I am just starting to learn to have the patience for it. Good job on that Naked Kill route...sounds ill! I have climbed at the Primo and Anarchy walls, though not in while. Sucking my Will and Anarchatect would both be good projects to dial....maybe use Anarchatect for PE training laps (i.e. 2x4's), although I suppose I have to send it first! All of those routes seem like bouldering on a rope to me...super powerful moves with good rests between. I would like to hear your recommendations if you think others would be better suited for training.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Kevin, I will weigh in on the good training routes issue. Clear Creek is definitely a great training area, at least in my opinion. A variety of climbing styles allows a climber to work on a plethora of situations. If you are wanting to jump on the elusive 8a here are some that I think are pretty solid at the grade and are very different. Stuffed Wolf on High Profile crag is a insanely sustained enduro climb with two 13a cruxes back to back. Really classic climbing and aesthetic line to boot. Also try River Run at Primo Wall. Exceptionally bouldery, power power power on this one! A couple other Primo routes that are worthy, Public solitude (although I havn't been on this one yet) it seems that it is a little more technical and intricate than the previously mentioned routes. While you are at it, jump on Squeeze Play to the Right of P.S., this route has two crux sections with a decent rest splitting them. Anyway, these are some of the 8a routes that you should jump on, all of them are fun in their own way. Good luck!

You all got this pretty well covered, but I'll just foot-stomp some things:

-The Karn quote: Gold!

-A project that gets you psyched is way better than a project that is nearby. (i.e. F___ clearcreek, but that's just my opinion)

-Plan your day at the crag: Stupidly obvious to me, but most people don't do it. If this doesn't make sense to you, or you disagree, let us know so we can convince you.

Mike's right, plan your day at the crag, I don't do this often enough, but when I have it has paid off. As for getting psyched on a project, it is true that is the key, despite where it is. As for the F___ Clear Creek comment, we could care less if you like our crag or not.

Like I said, just my opinion. How you react to my opinion is up to you.

Mike Anderson wrote:(i.e. F___ clearcreek, but that's just my opinion)

ouch.
i guess we often mock what we dont understand.

Kevin,

The variability depends mostly on my goals. The timing has evolved somewhat as I've improved. When I started cyclic training, I did ~ 4weeks of ARCing, which is what I believe PRC advocates. I quickly realized that local endurance was not my weakness, and I should be focusing more on power, so I started trimming those phases down. I've found lately that I can do three ARCing sessions (~ 1 week worth) and be ready to move into the next phase.

For power, the variability generally depends on my specific route goals for the season, and the weather. If the weather is bad, the phase will be longer. If its good, I usually spend most of that phase doing 'roped-bouldering' on some project I have in mind. If the route ends up being easier than expected (I can do all the moves), I'll generally just start trying to redpoint the route, and to hell with the cylce, since redpointing the project is, after all, the goal of the training cycle. Another factor here is my elbows. Since campusing seems to be pretty hard on my elbows, if I start sensing pain, I'll usually cut it short. Keep in mind, I don't have much power, relative to my redpointing stats, so I'm not the best person to emulate when it comes to power training.

On the PE/performance end, the variability is due to the fact that its kind of a gray area where you draw the line between these two phases, especially since most of my PE training consists of trying to redpoint routes. The season I sent Scarface, I climbed outside on the weekends, just trying to redpoint routes that were similar in PE-style to Scarface. Then on Wednesday of each week I did a 4x4. I did a total of 4, so my PE phase was 4 weeks. That was the most focused PE training I've ever done, and it was also the most effective. But I also totally burnt out about two weeks after I sent Scarface, which was about 4 weeks after my last 4x4. I'm not sure if this burn out was due to the 4x4s (all of the literature indicates that repetitive accumulation of lactic acid will result in 'burnout'), or due to the POD of completing a 2-year goal.

Finally, the rest period totally depends on how I'm feeling, both physically and mentally.

To summarize, the way I've done things lately is:

1. ARC ~1 week
2. Hangboard ~4 weeks
3. Climb outside ~10 weeks, with the first few weeks focused more on "roped bouldering" and the rest focused more towards redpointing. These two activities overlap depending on the difficulty of the route.
4. Rest 1-3 weeks

Kevin Stricker wrote:I would like to hear your recommendations if you think others would be better suited for training.

here is a sampling of CCC routes, with mix of "trainers" and "projects" depending on one's ability. i tried to focus mostly on power-endurance (some may disagree), somewhat techy moves, with generally not many rests (rests are relative). if you are intention is souly for training, get creative and skip the rests. besides, this selection of fine routes serves as a good tour-de-clear-creek for the 5.12 climber. would love to hear feedback:

Adventure Kayak Trundle 12a, River Wall - one move wonder, then lots of 10 and 11 jug haulin' - great for laps. do the rest of the ledge routes while youre up there.

Moving Out 12b, Primo Area, techy for the grade

Big Dog 12a/b/c, Dog House, conducive for lapping (combined with other DH routes for high-mileage type days )

Mighty Dog 12c, Dog House, bouldery type cruxes

Great Escape 12c, Wall o' Justice, one of few severly overhung routes

Sucking My Will 12c, Primo Area, techy for the grade

Flying Cowboys 12c/d, Primo, cryptic and powerful bouldery cruxes

TenDigit 12c, Wall90s, seems to be everyone's proj at one time or another, wait in line...

Y2K 12c, Wall90s, a longer route although not sustained, powerful couple move wonder crux

Battle's End 12c/d, Stumbling Block, continuous moves, although approach may not be worth it to some.

Brennivin Roof 12c (maybe even 12d), Creekside, a little more of a serious kind of project, but I just had to throw in my most recent favorite. ;) maybe even Mike Anderson would be psyched for this one!

Anarchitect 12d, Anarchy, must do. This and Sonic are the gateway, a rite of passage, if you will. Decent circuit to combine with the short routes on the left side (up.down.up.down.up.down). tendon friendly.

Gauntlet 12d, Primo Area (Armory), mix of styles and cruxes, not-so tendon friendly

Sonic Youth 12d/13a, New River, many locals' first 13, awesome route. not-so conducive for projecting (wait for creek to freeze)

Stuffed Wolf 13b, Profile, continuous, sustained

Black and Tan 13b, Wall 90s, techy and continuous. not very powerful

Squeeze Play 13b, Primo, two parts cryptic, one part power. skip the rest for full value.

Interstellar Overdrive 13d, Wall 90s, pow-enduro to boulder problem when you are wicked gassed. careful of your tendons.

I venture to say after sending the above, one would have the tools necessary to be at the "8a" level in other areas too.

hope this helps. :)

-darren

i'll take the bait darren.

squeeze play. 13c. If its good enough joe kinder and daniel woods, its good enough for me.

werd.
~arnold

Darren Mabe wrote: here is a sampling of CCC routes, with mix of "trainers" and "projects" depending on one's ability. i tried to focus mostly on power-endurance (some may disagree), somewhat techy moves, with generally not many rests (rests are relative). if you are intention is souly for training, get creative and skip the rests. besides, this selection of fine routes serves as a good tour-de-clear-creek for the 5.12 climber. would love to hear feedback: Adventure Kayak Trundle 12a, River Wall - one move wonder, then lots of 10 and 11 jug haulin' - great for laps. do the rest of the ledge routes while youre up there. Moving Out 12b, Primo Area, techy for the grade Big Dog 12a/b/c, Dog House, conducive for lapping (combined with other DH routes for high-mileage type days ) Mighty Dog 12c, Dog House, bouldery type cruxes Great Escape 12c, Wall o' Justice, one of few severly overhung routes Sucking My Will 12c, Primo Area, techy for the grade Flying Cowboys 12c/d, Primo, cryptic and powerful bouldery cruxes TenDigit 12c, Wall90s, seems to be everyone's proj at one time or another, wait in line... Y2K 12c, Wall90s, a longer route although not sustained, powerful couple move wonder crux Battle's End 12c/d, Stumbling Block, continuous moves, although approach may not be worth it to some. Brennivin Roof 12c (maybe even 12d), Creekside, a little more of a serious kind of project, but I just had to throw in my most recent favorite. ;) maybe even Mike Anderson would be psyched for this one! Anarchitect 12d, Anarchy, must do. This and Sonic are the gateway, a rite of passage, if you will. Decent circuit to combine with the short routes on the left side (up.down.up.down.up.down). tendon friendly. Gauntlet 12d, Primo Area (Armory), mix of styles and cruxes, not-so tendon friendly Sonic Youth 12d/13a, New River, many locals' first 13, awesome route. not-so conducive for projecting (wait for creek to freeze) Stuffed Wolf 13b, Profile, continuous, sustained Black and Tan 13b, Wall 90s, techy and continuous. not very powerful Squeeze Play 13b, Primo, two parts cryptic, one part power. skip the rest for full value. Interstellar Overdrive 13d, Wall 90s, pow-enduro to boulder problem when you are wicked gassed. careful of your tendons. I venture to say after sending the above, one would have the tools necessary to be at the "8a" level in other areas too. hope this helps. :) -darren

Have you actually sent all of these routes that you are recommending to Kevin? Because if you've sent Intersteller, then you need to update your profile.

Ken Cangi wrote: Have you actually sent all of these routes that you are recommending

No. that wasnt the point... what is yours?

Darren Mabe wrote: No. that wasnt the point... what is yours?

The point is that you are giving advice about how to train for 8a, by suggesting some very hard routes that you haven't done.. I doubt that you have any idea what those routes feel like. This comment:

"here is a sampling of CCC routes, with mix of "trainers" and "projects" depending on one's ability. i tried to focus mostly on power-endurance (some may disagree), somewhat techy moves, with generally not many rests (rests are relative). if you are intention is souly for training, get creative and skip the rests. besides, this selection of fine routes serves as a good tour-de-clear-creek for the 5.12 climber."

...makes you sound as though you have intimate knowledge of these routes.

If Kevin were strong enough to send one of the hardest 8bs in this area, I doubt that he would have opened this thread asking how to climb 8a.

Lets keep it real.

Bob D'Antonio wrote:Chris Carmichael was no were near as good as a rider as Lance...but he gave some great advice and coaching.

He didn't give coaching advice. He gave a list of routes that he said were good for training to climb 8a - routes that he didn't do.

have you read my previous posts, Ken?

lets back up. this may help to keep it real.

My understanding of Kevin's original post was a discussion of "achieving the higher grades", with his personal goal being "8a". is this not correct, Kevin? If so, then what is the difference of training for, say, 7c, 7c+, 8a, 8a+, 8b, etc? Could not all the training knowledge from the subsequent comments apply towards these grades? 8a is just a number, as is 13b, as is 13a, 13-, or 5.9+. this is why i hate ratings:

Darren Mabe wrote: i really do not like ratings... i think it limits you from the very beginning, in that it gives you an expectation, a preconcieved notion, about how hard or easy a route will be.

Actually, maybe I need a better understanding of what Kevin's post was? I assume Kevin would not being content with just climbing his first 13b, to consider himself an 8a-climber. Kevin, are you wanting to onsight at this grade? or redpoint? If its redpoint, then everyone is telling you to go do it. If its onsight, then you would probably have to be redpointing a grade higher.

This thread is not about me, or my climbing resume. And the advice EVERYONE has given doesnt even have to be about Kevin. I didnt claim i was a 5.13 climber:

Darren Mabe wrote: I am still not even close to "8a",

I focused on the process of projecting routes to get better, reiterating:

Darren Mabe wrote: it sounds like you need to "work" routes more. that was a big hurdle for me (again not at the 13 level, but at the 12+ level)

kevin agreed:

Kevin Stricker wrote:Darren, I agree that projecting is a weakness of mine. I am just starting to learn to have the patience for it.

are these not good ideas? or do you need my full climbing resume?:

Darren Mabe wrote: working the piss out of routes, climbing quickly through the shitty holds, sometimes climbing with a partner that is better than you (a mentor-type), working out the antagonist muscles, probably less smoking, less drinking, ...... the redpoint, even if it seems like a technicality at times, locks in that bodymemory which you can deploy on other routes...

now, it is obvious that my list of Clear Creek routes struck a nerve with you, Ken. The list is not just for Kevin, otherwise the first 5 would probably be his warm-ups. Thats why i said:

Darren Mabe wrote: here is a sampling of CCC routes, with mix of "trainers" and "projects" depending on one's ability.

I dont think it is necessary, but if you must know, I have indeed climbed all those routes except for Stuffed Wolf (of which I relied on inputs from 3 of my best partners). Many of them I redpointed, some of them I am still projecting. Some took longer than others. Some of my projects i am close on (1-2 falls), some are still very difficult. they would not be projects if it came easy! So, yes, i have been on Interstellar, about 3 times. the last move is the hardest for me stepping off the glued hold, even with my height advantage. How do you do that move, Ken? It helped my head to try something way out of my limits, to put perspective on the other projects i was working at the time (ranging from 12d to 13b). Not a bad tactic, eh?!

so no, i still havent redpointed a 13a.

does that give you the credibility/intimacy you were looking for, Ken?
Do you not think that was an appropriate list? Would not Stuffed Wolf, Black and Tan, and Squeeze Play be valid 8a projects with the 12+s and Interstellar providing some boundaries to gauge progress?

how is that for real.