Pet peeve (spray related).

I have noticed this disconcerting (to me) pattern when some climbers are talking to each other about routes:

Climber A: What route should I try?

Climber B: If you're good at stemming, try route X. If you're solid on small holds, you should try route Y.

I'll tell you why this bugs me. Climber B's statements suggest that Climber A may or may not be good at, alternately, stemming or crimping. This requires that Climber A judge himself; however, I would take issue with the need for Climber A to judge himself in the first place.

This exchange forces Climber A into a dangerous way of thinking: the thinking that tends to rank others based on "ability." I easily lapse into it, which then makes my self esteem depend upon how I rank compared to others. But this is shaky ground on which to base my self worth. For example, on some days, I'm a strong small-holds climber. On other days I'm not. Compared to some climbers, I'm a strong stemmer, but compared to, say Randy Leavitt, I'm certainly not. I hate the subtle hierarchy that develops among climbers, and in my opinion, this example is one way in which people rank themselves above others.

What do you all think about this?

I think perhaps you should switch to DECAFE.

I have to agree with Pete on this one. I never suggest some one not drink coffee but man, you are over thinking this one.

You are speaking to one of the exact points made by Arno Ilgner in his book the Rock Warrior's Way. Some days your "on" and other days your "off", and you shouldn't judge yourself as a climber based on accomplishments or comparision with others. Instead he recommends to look at a climb as what you can/did learn from the experience.

Perhaps Climber B's repsonse should be:

Climber B: If you want the opportunity to work on your stemming try route X. If you want to work on smal holds try route Y.

Climber A: What route should I try?

My response: It all depends; what are you looking for?

Not sure this is the most annoying thing people are doing on the forums, or even annoying at all. It all depends on what the person will have fun doing. I have fun on climbs out of my expertise so I can work on whatever technique I need to get up them. Some people like sticking to what they know. Sounds like climber B is just being informative.

More annoying spray is when you post a route and you get spray about "this route IS 10b not 10c" or whetever. Typically they state the exact year they started climbing if it was 1993 or earlier. Not sure what this has to do with it. Ratings are an opinion, get over yourself. Try "I felt like this was harder than that rating for me". I usually post what the guide says to avoid complaints however you still get them - can't make 'em all happy.

Climber A: Do you think I'm up to leading that route over there?

Climber B: I think you should solo it. I need the footage, and it could make you a star.

Sorry, Those little bastards are always shedding their nasty troll hairs all over my hard drive.

Wait just a second Mr. Cangi.
We all need to be more responsible for our communications. Before we speak or write we need to thoroughly think thru how our words might affect your average spinless schlup whose entire existence is teetering near the edge of a shallow word.
Look into the eyes of the person you are communicating with. Understand their psyche. . . know their weaknesses and fragilities. All of these will help you to better understand them in the future, thus be more capable of molding them into what you want.
Once they are molded, the true fun begins! A fragile psyche is a wonderful thing to control. . . .
Then, Mr. Cangi, you pull out the camcorder.

cameron wrote:Wait just a second Mr. Cangi. We all need to be more responsible for our communications. Before we speak or write we need to thoroughly think thru how our words might affect your average spinless schlup whose entire existence is teetering near the edge of a shallow word. Look into the eyes of the person you are communicating with. Understand their psyche. . . know their weaknesses and fragilities. All of these will help you to better understand them in the future, thus be more capable of molding them into what you want. Once they are molded, the true fun begins! A fragile psyche is a wonderful thing to control. . . . Then, Mr. Cangi, you pull out the camcorder.

It's too late for that. He's already quivering his way up the second pitch. "Roll em."

Well Jay, as for me, it smells like a troll (which Cangi caught - and of which I was supportive).
IF it is true, and you were being sincere. . . man that's funny!
IF in fact you were trolling. . . man that's funny!

Anyhow, troll or not, I like your comment. Climbers do engage in ranking themselves on many levels. The simplest is: how hard do you climb? Followed by a slew of potential levels in the hierarchy of the climbing world: sponsored or not, how long have you climbed, how many FAs? Etc.

You can avoid ranking yourself by looking at it this way: Did you have fun, were you happy when you finished the climb? Then the hierarchy goes away. It's not about the difficult moves or the type of moves, it's the experience you had. Sometimes I look at my young compadres and wish I could do the hard moves they do but I don't mind. I try and if I fail, I just lower and whine. But I had fun trying. I don't think any less of myself, I'm still king of my domain!

As hard as it may be to believe, I was being serious. I was trying to explain/understand one of the subtle aspects of spray that I find frustrating. I am not saying it is the most annoying aspect, but I think it exists because one climber is trying to rank himself above another. That, to me, is the most insidious kind of spray.

As for the coffee comment...that was probably right on.

One thing that does bother me is political correctness run amuck. I’d be the first person to give the shirt off my back to someone, but probably the last to review my communications (ensuring that there is no possible way that what I am about to say could be perceived as ego-diminishing to a sensitive soul) when asked a question. Esp. if the question is “what route should I try”. I’ll tell ya right now, my response would be “hell if I know – what’d’ya feel like climbing”?

My initial comment was obviously sarcastic in nature.
MaddButt wrote: “Basically it's everything I HATE about ALOT of climbers out there.”
My response: Why would you waste your thoughts and energies hating things about people who don’t act or react as you would?
Give it up! People are offended and hurt and egotesticle and competitive. If you don’t like it don’t let them suck you in, less you become what you detest.
Hierarchy?! That shit is all in your head. The only person who cares about your climbing ability or history is you – if you really think that others care and judge you accordingly, then your ego is too big or you’re around people you shouldn’t be.

(If this was a troll, you win!)
“Roll ‘em!” Man, that was funny. . . Lighten up people!!

Feels like a therapy session. . . . I’m out

Jay Knower wrote:Ken and Cameron, I have read and reread your posts for a while now, and I can't, for the life of me, understand them. What are you talking about?

Jay,

Stick to climbing, and leave the trolling to the professionals.

Ken Cangi wrote: Jay, Stick to climbing, and leave the trolling to the professionals.

Ken,

Not that I needed your advice in the first place, but yes, I'll stick to climbing. As for attempting to have a meaningful conversation about something subtle, I suppose I should stick to simple talk about simple things.

Jay Knower wrote: Ken, Not that I needed your advice in the first place, but yes, I'll stick to climbing. As for attempting to have a meaningful conversation about something subtle, I suppose I should stick to simple talk about simple things.

My goodness, Jay. Do I detect a byte of hostility in your tone? I know it's been a little cold in your neck of the woods lately, but that's no reason to lose your sense of humor.

Just keep this tune in your head: "The Sun will come out....tomorrow...bet your bottom dollar that toooomorrow..." Can ya feel it, Jay?

Ken, I'm not sure that humor was my desire with this thread. Not to say that it's unwelcome; I just thought this would generate some interesting discussion about something that had always bugged me but I had not put words to. I suppose I shouldn't have expected the others to share my unique (skewed?) world view.

As for the weather hereabouts...It's supposed to be 50 and sunny tommorrow. That's pretty much a heat wave up here, so I'll be out climbing shirtless. I only hope that the slopers won't feel too greasy. On second thought, maybe I'll stick to the shade.

Jay Knower wrote: so I'll be out climbing shirtless.

That's too much information for me.

Jay Knower wrote:I only hope that the slopers won't feel too greasy. On second thought, maybe I'll stick to the shade.

Slap some grease for me while you're out there. I do so miss that greasy granite at times. Reminds me of the old days in North Conway. 12a slabs with a 1/4" bolt every fifteen feet. Gives me tingles just thinking about it.

Ken Cangi wrote: 12a slabs with a 1/4" bolt every fifteen feet. Gives me tingles just thinking about it.

Ken, I hate to break it to you, but no one climbs those slab routes anymore. Those are the routes that are covered with moss.

Jay Knower wrote: Ken, I hate to break it to you, but no one climbs those slab routes anymore. Those are the routes that are covered with moss.

That's a shame. Could you imagine a pitch like the crux of Tourist Treat stacked on top of Apocalypse? That would be badass. I love the steeps, but I think hard slabs are way underrated. Look at the crux pitch of The Nose. All the steeps on the planet won't prepare you for that.

mschlocker wrote:More annoying spray is when you post a route and you get spray about "this route IS 10b not 10c" or whetever.

This is my pet peeve too. I wish I was strong enough to overlook it, but I find such comments discolor my memory of a route. I remember the moves, I remember the location, I remember the joy or the fear or even the tears, but I also remember some guy hanging his way up after me and saying, "oh, there's no way that's such and such a grade," or some girl saying, "oh, that's not such and such a grade for you because of your finger size." It's all so relative. Is it 5.11d if you are 5 foot 3 or shorter? 5.11c if you are over 135 pounds with tapered fingers? 5.10a if you drank coffee and had three rest days? 5.10c if you are good at stemming but bad at handjams? 5.12b if you are recovering from a finger injury? 5.13 if you are scared shitless and drop the nuts?

I think grades are necessary and helpful. Some debate is natural, especially for a new route that hasn't seen many ascents. But if the route has accumulated polish and chalk since the days of Bridwell, I say downgrading is an act of the ego.