Choss Theory

Basically everything is choss. But, choss naysayers delude themselves into thinking something isn't choss because in they're minds choss can't be fun. There's a wall in my local area that has become increasingly popular due to some genuinely good climbing and some supposedly amazingly rock quality. The thing is, the wall is legit choss. Every 5.12 on the wall has had many holds break. At least 3 routes climb through stacked death choss flakes. The wall is also covered in very large scars. But still, people swear by the rock quality and even look visibly disturbed when I explain to them the chossy truth that they are trying to suppress. I'm putting up a new route at World Wall and the people who climb there are absolutely terrified of anything coming off the wall even little pebbles. I feel like if you are a rock climber you should have certain margins that allow you to deal with falling pebbles and dirt. The World Wall climbers are a good example of delusional choss naysaying. They'll tout how solid the rock is, ignoring the fact that half of the routes climb on detached flakes and have holds break frequently. Every time some small thing comes off of World Wall you'll see reality set in on people's faces. The reality that they're under a 170' exfoliating cliff and they have no where to run lol. Developer's will also convince themselves that they're routes aren't choss. I actually think that's somewhat of a mental disorder that could cause bigger problems. It would be healthier and safer to be honest with yourself and the people who will climb your routes in the future. Minor rant: Developer's egos (and climbing egos in general) are one of the biggest turnoffs in climbing. Every human being has an ego to some extent but writing a manifesto to some random gumby who downgraded your route is immature and pathetic. Mind you this is coming from someone who has most likely spent more time and money developing than you so I won't hear any coping about how costs justify freaking out at others over fucking rock climbing. Rant over. 

Maybe one of these choss delusionalists can explain to me if it's an acknowledgement issue or the ability to identify issue.

Glad you posted this and have had a few recent close calls with falling rock.  Had a large 300lb block detach on a trad climb my buddy was climbing.  It missed me by 6 feet and by the time I noticed the rock falling, it was on the ground beside me.  No way to move out the way in time.  The block was covered in chalk and had been used for years and did not look like it was about to fail.

Several other basketball blocks pulled off this spring. I now NEVER belay directly under my climber when I have a choice as I realize your reaction time to move is in microseconds.  
Regardless of whether it looks choosy or bulletproof, never assume it is never going to blow off a big piece and ruin your day or worse. 

Something I've noticed is that "choss" tends to break in smaller chunks and is often more predictable meanwhile "good quality rock"  tends to break in much larger chunks and often is less predictable. 

Something breaking off at Pinnacles is just another day at Pinnacles, meanwhile something breaking off in Yosemite is often A Big Deal. 

Yer mom is choss!

Trevr Taylr wrote:

Basically everything is choss. Rant over. 

Yes.  The agreement button was clicked immiediately.  

One of my partners has a pretty strong aversion to "modern moderates" for this reason.  Hi rational is that natural lines on clean routes with solid rock were picked off decades ago and anything developed in the last couple decades either is choss or hard.  We have ample evidence to back his theory up.  

Yes, on a long enough geologic timeline, absolutely everything is indeed choss. (And geologic time, as is said, is now.)

The choss is everywhere!

This must be copy and pasted. I swear Iv read these exact words before 

Well, if all climbs are choss, some are more choss than others.

T Taylor wrote:

One of the truest threads I have ever seen

Ooof

First and foremost, I have to make sure to say this up front: Choss is classic. Most of the best routes I’ve ever climbed have not been on gods own stone but instead a bit of a pile.

I think this is mostly a west-of-the-Mississippi thing. For the most part, the rock is just way younger and the climate way dryer, meanwhile the east coast has a billion year head start and some “accelerated cleaning”.

But within this zone - I 100% agree. We have the same situation in the front range. People extol the rock quality of Staunton but stuff breaks on classics all of the time (edit: told you so). Eldo is an actual choss pile. A quiet, real number of routes in the flatirons have entire sections effectively glued together. Don’t even get me started on newer areas (Wonderland being chief offender among them)

There’s rockfall accidents around the front range all of the time - and it really shocks me:

• A) how many people feel like rock will never break on them
• B) how many people feel that any rock breaking is a moral and ethical failure of the FA, regardless of how much time and how many ascents have passed since the FA
• C) how many people act like potato chip flakes and the like breaking either novel or a big deal, especially on newer lines

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken; for choss thou art, and unto choss shalt thou return.”

One of the truest threads I have ever seen

The Traddest Dad wrote:

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken; for choss thou art, and unto choss shalt thou return.”

This is a guy who knows how the game is played. 

Trevr Taylr wrote:

I'm putting up a new route at World Wall 

Why?

Trevr Taylr wrote:

There's a wall in my local area that has become increasingly popular due to some genuinely good climbing and some supposedly amazingly rock quality. The thing is, the wall is legit choss. 

Just 'cause one attached-looking block fell off on UTW, suddenly all of Index is choss? Oh wait, Index IS choss.

Unless you're talking about Helms?

I used to think this way and then I went on an ayahuasca trip. You are wrong.

The beauty of a place like index or yosemite is that 99% of the time the route remains unchanged from its birth. You could literally hook a winch up to holds on the wall in index and the winch would break or your attachment point would break before the rock would. Most the time you are not even grabbing holds.

The fact that holds at your crag break regularly isn’t something noble. Index is a real crag and your choss is like going to a kids birthday party at a climbing gym. It resets so often that nothing is even a test piece.

Ian Edison wrote:

Why?

Ego

Aldous Eaton wrote:

I used to think this way and then I went on an ayahuasca trip. You are wrong.

The beauty of a place like index or yosemite is that 99% of the time the route remains unchanged from its birth. You could literally hook a winch up to holds on the wall in index and the winch would break or your attachment point would break before the rock would. Most the time you are not even grabbing holds.

The fact that holds at your crag break regularly isn’t something noble. Index is a real crag and your choss is like going to a kids birthday party at a climbing gym. It resets so often that nothing is even a test piece.

Identity theft isn't funny