Quick Rappel Question

Going to do Castleton Tower. I recall the rings at the top are massive and meant to help keep ropes from getting stuck when knotted together for the 50m or so rappel. I'll be going with my 70m climbing rope and 75m tag line. I'll knot the two with a flat overhand and then use a reepschnur hitch and we'll rap the route on grigris. I've done a reepschnur both with and without a tagline many times and it's a simple and easy to check system. It occured to me the only thing I haven't done is use the hitch with rappel rings large enough that the average carabiner or even overhand knot can actually pass thru the rings. 

Anything to be concerned about or am I right that the rappeler's weight on the rappel line will be enough to keep the reepschnur in position at the rings? 

If the rings are too big to block whatever you're using as a block that is indeed a significant problem. Some clever people here came up with a solution using a PCD, lemme see if I can find it. 

Edit to add: Here it is, read this thread.

This is what almostrad proposes:

Which Austin Donisan then verifies works with a real world test on page 3.

EDIT:  since OP is keeping his tagline diameter a mystery, i will assume a full strength tag/rap line (you can rappel on it safely, and can trust it without question to hold body weight with a large factor of safety)

I would have last homie rap on an ATC in traditional, unblocked double-strand configuration, if rings are truly too big for a HMS carabiner to block effectively.  Get first homies down however you like.  This way eliminates the failure method that you are trying to avoid.

If everybody MUST rap on a grigri, and you choose to still employ the blocking method despite the risk of blocking knot or biner being pulled through the large rings, YOU (i would choose the first method described above) should tie the end of the tagline (or tie multiple bites and drop them as you get to them) to a full strength part of your harness. Then you MIGHT not die if it does pull through, since you have closed the system.  You could also have 1st homie down fix the tagline tight to the lower anchor, which would back u up if the blocker pulled through.

TLDR: Just bring a single ATC for last person down.

Not everything needs to be so complicated. Ya know?

It just occurred to me all I actually have to do is leave a nice steel quicklink on the rappel chains up there on the side with the biner block. I can have the easy approach with a tagline, easy rappel with two raps instead of 4, and absolute safety for about $1.90.

U could achieve easy approach with tagline, same number of raps, absolute safety, plus 0$ and not leaving anything behind, if you bring a single ATC with you.

Edit: Your reply leads me to infer that you are not comfortable putting bodyweight on your tagline. Are you rocking some super UL shoestring? If your “tagline” is some 3mm or something strictly to be used as a pull cord, then that changes things.  Please let us know. 

Nathan Mwrote:

You could also have 1st homie down fix the tagline tight to the lower anchor, which would back u up if the blocker pulled through.

Be aware that if you do this, your system is only as strong as the tag line by itself. If your knot pulls through, only the tag line is holding you, and your climbing rope is not connected to anything.

And it's always true that, if the knot pulls through, it can be impossible to pull the knot back through the rings. 

A good way to prevent the knot from pulling through at all is to incorporate a locking biner into the body of the knot (as shown here for a figure 8), and then also clip that carabiner to the "climb" side of the rope (like this, except using the "knot-in-body" setup). Testing this setup at home, I haven't been able to get the knot to pass around a flat rod, which is the largest possible "ring opening."

I'm always interested in people's calculus for making these decisions. A 70M 6mm tagline weighs 4.55 lbs.  A petzl dragonfly 8.2 mm 60 M rope weighs 5.55 lbs. Then you just do a double rope rap with knotted ends.  If it were me, I'd take the second rope because it's that much more versatile.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, I genuinely don't understand why a tagline is better in this situation?

Climbers tend to care a lot about weight and bulk, my friend.  “Better” is pretty loaded adjective here and will depend on what you value and which tradeoffs you are willing to accept.  For example, in most situations, I enjoy using a beal gully 7.3 half rope as my tagline, because it strikes a good compromise between the traits that i PERSONALLY value in a 2nd cord.

Devan Beewrote:

Be aware that if you do this, your system is only as strong as the tag line by itself. If your knot pulls through, only the tag line is holding you, and your climbing rope is not connected to anything.

And it's always true that, if the knot pulls through, it can be impossible to pull the knot back through the rings. 

A good way to prevent the knot from pulling through at all is to incorporate a locking biner into the body of the knot (as shown here for a figure 8), and then also clip that carabiner to the "climb" side of the rope (like this, except using the "knot-in-body" setup). Testing this setup at home, I haven't been able to get the knot to pass around a flat rod, which is the largest possible "ring opening."

I suspect I didn't explain it well enough in the original post. The type of rappel setup I use most often with or without a tagline is shown at 7:40. What I've heard it called is a Reepschnur hitch.

phylp phylpwrote:

I'm always interested in people's calculus for making these decisions. A 70M 6mm tagline weighs 4.55 lbs.  A petzl dragonfly 8.2 mm 60 M rope weighs 5.55 lbs. Then you just do a double rope rap with knotted ends.  If it were me, I'd take the second rope because it's that much more versatile.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, I genuinely don't understand why a tagline is better in this situation?

I hear you on this one, and I personally like using double ropes but rarely can I convince someone else to use them with me. So then it becomes more of a question of not just what weighs the least, but also what takes up the least amount of space in a pack? A 6mm tagline will take up less space than an 8.2mm rope, acknowledging of course that a rope is much more versatile and useful should the need arise.

All that to say, if I had it my way I would do things as you're describing. I've just run into this situation with more than one partner who doesn't want to use double ropes and would rather carry whatever is needed for long raps (and this is where not just the weight, but the size comes into play). I don't get it, but I tend to lead everything 95% of the time so as long as my partner is willing to carry the tagline in their pack, I don't argue much

Jake Sankariwrote:

The type of rappel setup I use most often with or without a tagline is shown at 7:40. What I've heard it called is a Reepschnur hitch.

Right, and I'm suggesting that, to ensure that the knot doesn't pull through, that you do the same thing, only putting the locker through the body of the 8 instead of the eye. Through the eye, it can still pull through.

Cosmic Hotdogwrote:

I hear you on this one, and I personally like using double ropes but rarely can I convince someone else to use them with me. So then it becomes more of a question of not just what weighs the least, but also what takes up the least amount of space in a pack? A 6mm tagline will take up less space than an 8.2mm rope, acknowledging of course that a rope is much more versatile and useful should the need arise.

All that to say, if I had it my way I would do things as you're describing. I've just run into this situation with more than one partner who doesn't want to use double ropes and would rather carry whatever is needed for long raps (and this is where not just the weight, but the size comes into play). I don't get it, but I tend to lead everything 95% of the time so as long as my partner is willing to carry the tagline in their pack, I don't argue much

It's confusing to me why a significant number of American climbers seemed to have made the decision to forego double ropes within the last 10 years. I use doubles and taglines; each has their uses. But the fact that so many climbers are refusing to use doubles when they are obviously the better option... I just don't get it.

Try rapping off a 30-pitch climb in the Alps with a tagline. I did it once. It was *hell*. There's a reason Brits and Euros use doubles on the regular. Americans used to too. These refuseniks need to be re-educated. 

@mike what made it hell specifically?  The skinny cord was tough to manage?  Did you insist on rapping with knot on tag side every time and therefore wasted a lot of time pulling up and rethreading the rope?  Could you provide your reasoning about why double ropes are “obviously” better for long rappels?

When i rappel with a tagline i treat it like a full strength cord (which mine is), and every other rappel the joining knot switches from tag side to lead cord side.  I use an ATC with traditional unblocked double strand config.

Are some of us here mistakenly equating rappelling with a tagline to rappelling with a knot or biner block?  

Nathan Mwrote:

@mike what made it hell specifically?  

Are some of us here mistakenly equating rappelling with a tagline to rappelling with a knot or biner block?  

Curious about this as well.  I bought a RAD line a couple year back to pair with my Joker and Opera and it's definitely saved me a bunch of time on long routes, far from the road and above the trees.

Just bring two climbing ropes and tie them together. The Tower approach is practically a groomed switchback trail, and the routes are only 4 pitches long. Trying to save ounces in favor of a complicated and less robust rappel system is akin to spending a dollar to save a dime. Also, it can get extremely windy with strong gusts on the summit. Controlling even relatively heavy climbing ropes can be challenging when setting up and pulling the raps. Seems like a 6mm line could just blow sideways all day in those conditions.

phylp phylpwrote:

I'm always interested in people's calculus for making these decisions. A 70M 6mm tagline weighs 4.55 lbs.  A petzl dragonfly 8.2 mm 60 M rope weighs 5.55 lbs. Then you just do a double rope rap with knotted ends.  If it were me, I'd take the second rope because it's that much more versatile.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, I genuinely don't understand why a tagline is better in this situation?

Seems I've always used 50's or 60's on Castleton but I could be out of touch. I do understand however why one would go to such effort to not carry an atc.

Nathan Mwrote:

@mike what made it hell specifically?  The skinny cord was tough to manage?  Did you insist on rapping with knot on tag side every time and therefore wasted a lot of time pulling up and rethreading the rope?  Could you provide your reasoning about why double ropes are “obviously” better for long rappels?

When i rappel with a tagline i treat it like a full strength cord (which mine is), and every other rappel the joining knot switches from tag side to lead cord side.  I use an ATC with traditional unblocked double strand config.

Are some of us here mistakenly equating rappelling with a tagline to rappelling with a knot or biner block?  

Sorry to the OP for the thread drift...he asked a straightforward question and I took it sideways.

Nathan, thanks for your comment to me about what people PERSONALLY VALUE.  That was an aha moment and explains it more.  I get it now.

As to the double rope vs tagline, I suspect you and I are doing the same thing - not using double rope technique but using a light half rope as a "tagline".  I just think of it as a "trail rope" not a tagline. As you say, you can just thread and rap alternating sides using a typical 2 rope rap. Plus you have a backup rope if something goes sideways and you need to ascend or climb on the other rope.

I do appreciate the bulk argument. But in the OP, it says 70M rope and 70 M tagline, which if it's a 9.2 and a 6mm would be about 8.5 lbs plus 4.55 lbs = 13.05 lbs.  My configuration, depending on the climbing, for alpine stuff would more likely be a 60M 8.8mm triple rated rope at 6.7 lbs (that I use as a single) plus an 8.2 1/2 rope "tagline" at 5.55 pounds = 12.25 lbs, so maybe a tiny bit more bulk and a tiny bit less weight.  

Different strokes for different folks.

phylp phylpwrote:

…would more likely be a 60M 8.8mm triple rated rope at 6.7 lbs (that I use as a single) plus an 8.2 1/2 rope "tagline" at 5.55 pounds = 12.25 lbs, so maybe a tiny bit more bulk and a tiny bit less weight.  

Different strokes for different folks.

The best method *for me* with a rap line (6 or 7mm) has been to double the biner in the ATC, adds enough friction make it like you’re rapping on 2x8mm ropes (except the PUR line, that thing sucks to rap on, pull cord ONLY). With the quoted method above, there’s no need to use the double biner, just standard single biner through an ATC (or, IMO, even better, use a GigaJul) will provide plenty of friction for up to a 200lb climber. Perhaps most pertinent to the OP’s concern, using this size rope combo and joining w/ an EDK will mitigate the tendency for the line(s) to “run” through the anchor, eliminating the need for a biner block and all but eliminating the chance for the knot to suck through large rings. As always, ymmv 

Nathan Mwrote:

@mike what made it hell specifically?  The skinny cord was tough to manage?  Did you insist on rapping with knot on tag side every time and therefore wasted a lot of time pulling up and rethreading the rope?  Could you provide your reasoning about why double ropes are “obviously” better for long rappels?

When i rappel with a tagline i treat it like a full strength cord (which mine is), and every other rappel the joining knot switches from tag side to lead cord side.  I use an ATC with traditional unblocked double strand config.

Are some of us here mistakenly equating rappelling with a tagline to rappelling with a knot or biner block?  

First, why it was hell: So my tags (I have a 65 and 75m) are 6mm Mammut ProCord, which is no longer manufactured but was state-of-the-art in 2009 and used by many at the time when manufacturers didn't have dedicated taglines. ProCord was far better than standard accessory cord in preventing tangles, but not nearly as good as today's dedicated tags. So the faff factor on long rappels was inevitable, and that rappel--done at night in poor conditions coming off a brutal climb--was made immeasurably worse by it. To take one example, the simple act of pulling a 6mm tagline vs an 8mm half rope was way more taxing, especially when you're dealing with that many rappels.

If your tagline is a full strength cord, then we're talking about an entirely different ballgame (and something that did not exist until recently). The faff factor applies much less. In my case, reepschnur's are the only way to rig that setup safely.

But it's worth reiterating, I own and use taglines, and have been for over 15 years, long before they were in wide use. They absolutely have a place. I just didn't understand the refusal of some people to even consider using doubles, as Cosmic pointed out about a few partners. Especially on big stuff where rockfall and hung ropes are an ever-present threat (ie. the Alps, Canadian Rockies, etc), I far prefer having the redundancy and ease of retreat of two full strength ropes. To each his own.

This thread is long already, and so I apologize if this has already been mentioned and I missed it. I used a skinny tagline and single rope for rappelling off Castleton and was also confused and concerned about the very large rings at the end of the chains. After a minute of quick thinking, we threaded the rope through the chain links a couple above the large rings. It worked fine, and I don't remember having a significant problem pulling the rope.