ATC ban

My gym, Tacoma Edgeworks, has banned autobelays and now is banning ATCs. I love grigri’s as much as the next guy but this is I think the right decision for the wrong reason. The staff in general don’t enforce strict belay technique and I believe this is a managerial crutch for lack of oversight. Overall their quality as a gym has declined significantly and there are no other gyms in the area so this is a total bummer. Just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced declining gym quality due to corporate management? Has this buyout gym culture affected other gyms outside of the Seattle area?

N Mwrote:

 Just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced declining gym quality due to corporate management? 

Perhaps, what grinds my gears most is overcrowding and high prices. Most corporate gyms I've been to have ok setting and a decent hold selection at least.

Has this buyout gym culture affected other gyms outside of the Seattle area?

Pretty sure this is happening in New England too. At least one of the original CT gyms got bought out recently, unsure how their culture has changed because of it.

About the ATC Ban, from a business standpoint making assisted breaking devices only seems like a no brainer. ABDs are arguably safer for a gym environment (less decks + less staff needed to monitor/partol the gym = $$$ saved) and easier for new climbers to learn Toprope when all they gotta do is shovel the rope through a GriGri affixed to every TR station (easier/quicker to learn = higher retention rate = more $$$ for the business). Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer teaching new climbers on ATCs first because it promotes better habits but that's not in the businesses best interest. 

There is no ATC ban on my buddy's home wall, and it's never crowded, doesn't get much better than that! 

This has been the industry standard for a couple of years now. If a business deviates from what is an industry standard, and then there is a related accident, that business faces a lawsuit. 

N Mwrote:

null

My gym, Tacoma Edgeworks, has banned autobelays and now is banning ATCs. I love grigri’s as much as the next guy but this is I think the right decision for the wrong reason. The staff in general don’t enforce strict belay technique and I believe this is a managerial crutch for lack of oversight. Overall their quality as a gym has declined significantly and there are no other gyms in the area so this is a total bummer. Just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced declining gym quality due to corporate management? Has this buyout gym culture affected other gyms outside of the Seattle area?

What are the declining qualities you speak of?

I find that corporate management actually improves quality but perhaps declines flexibility. Staff can’t babysit all the climbers in the gym, so requiring a device with a “back-up” just makes sense.

Shawn Swrote:

Pretty sure this is happening in New England too. At least one of the original CT gyms got bought out recently, unsure how their culture has changed because of it.

Prime Climb got bought by Rock Spot - which I think started in Rhode Island - and is very much limited to New England.

Buuut, Brooklyn Boulders - Somerville got bought by Bouldering Project. It's a trade of one corporate master for another, but BP- Somerville only allows mechanically assisted break devices.

Central Rock has also been expanding like crazy too. So Boston has a ton of gyms, but things are definitely moving in the direction of corporate gym ownership

Shawn Swrote:

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer teaching new climbers on ATCs first because it promotes better habits but that's not in the businesses best interest. 

Kindly disagree with this one. Those same habits apply to a gri gri and with far less consequences if one fucks up. 

Curious, how come the ban on autobelays??

abe rwrote:

Curious, how come the ban on autobelays??

Probably cost + liability/attempts to avoid legal issues related to accidents

https://www.gymclimber.com/climbing-gym-battles-1-million-lawsuit-over-auto-belay-accident/ 

And, the case appears to be active - https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/Washington_State_King_County_Superior_Court/19-2-27385-2%20SEA/VANDIVERE_ET_AL_VS_VERTICAL_WORLD_INC/
That implies money is still being spent to defend against what most climbers would consider frivolous lawsuit.

N Mwrote:

null

and there are no other gyms in the area so this is a total bummer. 

Another BS. Obviously OP is a liar. There are Climb Tacoma and Cirque Climbing nearby. Why say there are no other gyms in the area?

There are plenty of competitors to choose from. If you don't like it, vote it with your money - go to other gyms.

Most climbing gyms I've been to have policies where you have to use auto-breaking device.  

amariuswrote:

Probably cost + liability/attempts to avoid legal issues related to accidents

https://www.gymclimber.com/climbing-gym-battles-1-million-lawsuit-over-auto-belay-accident/ 

And, the case appears to be active - https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/Washington_State_King_County_Superior_Court/19-2-27385-2%20SEA/VANDIVERE_ET_AL_VS_VERTICAL_WORLD_INC/
That implies money is still being spent to defend against what most climbers would consider frivolous lawsuit.

The obligation to defend is being paid by the insurance carrier, so the gym isn't spending money defending themselves. This cost is known as defense and cost containment by insurance carriers I can't remember the rules for how CGL rates are impacted by DCC but even 1 million in lawyer fees, would be spread across 1000 gyms over multiple years so the change in insurance cost would be pretty minimal. Also consider this relative to other industries, this is pennies. Dog bite claims alone frequently go well over 1 million. 

People think that insurance rates go up as a retroactive punishment for them being a bad driver. This is objectively false and illegal. Your rates go up after an accident because you are far far more likely to get into another accident. The only thing more predictive than your past accident history, is your credit score. 

As for the comment about BS, does climb Tacoma even have ropes? Circque isnt really very close at all. Greater Seattle area probably has the fewest gyms per capitia of any major city. I think I could name more Boston Gyms than gyms in the entire state of Washington. 

Sam Klingerwrote:

Most climbing gyms I've been to have policies where you have to use auto-breaking device.  

Man, that just does not seem safe.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

The obligation to defend is being paid by the insurance carrier, so the gym isn't spending money defending themselves.

Insurance carrier wanted to settle, so, perhaps, they are not paying

Vertical World’s insurance company wanted to settle, but Johnston refused. “If you start rolling over on stuff like this, the industry is going to be hit,” he said. “Everyone is going to look at [gyms] like a payday. He added that the industry practices and regulations surrounding auto belay use are still murky, and unfortunately it’s fallen on Vertical World to hold the front lines.  “We don’t know what ‘monitoring’ means in this industry,” said Johnston. “We don’t have good parameters for what it means to be ‘qualified’ to use an auto belay. There are a lot of things that need to be cleaned up, because this is not gonna get better.”

“It’s a risky move to go to trial,” Johnston admitted, “but I’m willing to do it. I don’t mind being the pointy end of the spear on this one. There will be ramifications if this thing goes the wrong way. We gotta fight this lawsuit, otherwise it’ll be open season for everybody.”

amariuswrote:

Insurance carrier is NOT defending -

Well, the insurance carrier would have been paying the expenses so far until the insured decided they wanted to fight the settlement. They might still be paying.

abe rwrote:

Kindly disagree with this one. Those same habits apply to a gri gri and with far less consequences if one fucks up.

My thoughts around this are if you learn on an ATC you can pretty much belay with any style device with minimal critiques. Also since GriGris (and similar ABDs) are some of the only devices in climbing where if you let go the device catches and you are ok/caught it may not be the best device to learn how to belay with. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

As for the comment about BS, does climb Tacoma even have ropes? 

This is the problem with shitty climbers. They only do rope and become that perpetual shitty 5.10 climbers, while you can train by bouldering to become really good rope climber, but they just don't do it. Shitty climbers are always shitty climbers

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Circque isnt really very close at all. 

20min drive is far?

Jake Fosterwrote:

This is the problem with shitty climbers. They only do rope and become that perpetual shitty 5.10 climbers, while you can train by bouldering to become really good rope climber, but they just don't do it. Shitty climbers are always shitty climbers

Trevor doesn’t boulder

Jake Fosterwrote:

This is the problem with shitty climbers. They only do rope and become that perpetual shitty 5.10 climbers, while you can train by bouldering to become really good rope climber, but they just don't do it. Shitty climbers are always shitty climbers

This is pretty loaded, I do not rope climb much in the gym. But a thread about ATCs and gri gris where the OP is concerned about using them, including bouldering gyms is kinda weird. I do agree they should at least consider climb Tacoma a gym. 

20min drive is far?

Obviously really depends on where you are in Tacoma, tts 30 min on a good day from downtown, probably 45 min for someone going after work. 

J T wrote:

Trevor doesn’t boulder

I don't boulder well. If I go to the gym I generally boulder or obviously my woody is a third moonboard.

Edit: Jake based on your example the furthest boston gyms are 28.8 miles apart. If you include cirque and summit everett those two gyms are 85 miles a part. 

These are also what I would consider the Seattle gyms:

Momentum Indoor Climbing SODO
Seattle Bouldering Project Poplar
Seattle Bouldering Project Fremont
Vertical World Seattle
Edgeworks Climbing Seattle
Edgeworks Climbing Bellevue
Vertical World Redmond
Half Moon Bouldering
Uplift Climbing
Vertical World North

Maybe I am mostly salty since I live in Renton and it is faster for me to drive to north bend than to go to the gym. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Greater Seattle area probably has the fewest gyms per capitia of any major city. I think I could name more Boston Gyms than gyms in the entire state of Washington. 

False statement. By a long shot. Not even close. It is the opposite, Greater Seattle area, alone, has higher gyms per capita than Greater Boston.

You need to do your homework before stating something, otherwise it is just BS.

Greater Boston Area population 4.9 million in 2021

14 climbing gyms:

La Vida Rock Gym
Central Rock Gym Stoneham
Rock Spot Climbing: Malden
MetroRock Climbing Center Everett
Central Rock Gym Boston
Rock Spot Climbing: South Boston
Central Rock Gym Smith PL Cambridge
Central Rock Gym Brattle Street Cambridge
Central Rock Gym Beacon St Boston
Central Rock Gym Waltham
Central Rock Gym Watertown
Rock Spot Climbing: Boston-Dedham
Central Rock Gym Randolph
Central Rock Gym Framingham

Gym per capita: 14/4.9million

Greater Seattle Area population 3.46 million in 2021

14 climbing gyms:

Cirque Climbing
Edgeworks Climbing Tacoma
Climb Tacoma
Momentum Indoor Climbing SODO
Seattle Bouldering Project Poplar
Seattle Bouldering Project Fremont
Vertical World Seattle
Edgeworks Climbing Seattle
Edgeworks Climbing Bellevue
Vertical World Redmond
Half Moon Bouldering
Uplift Climbing
Vertical World North
Summit Everett

Gym per capita: 14/3.46 million

Jake Fosterwrote:

This is the problem with shitty climbers. They only do rope and become that perpetual shitty 5.10 climbers, while you can train by bouldering to become really good rope climber, but they just don't do it. Shitty climbers are always shitty climbers

20min drive is far?

What a strong retort. You do realize this is a thread about belay device policies?

It doesn't look like you have to use a gri-gri, you can use any of the other assisted braking devices, many of which don't suffer from the drawbacks of the gri-gri and have a very ATC "feel" as a belayer.

Jake Fosterwrote:

This is the problem with shitty climbers. They only do rope and become that perpetual shitty 5.10 climbers, while you can train by bouldering to become really good rope climber, but they just don't do it. Shitty climbers are always shitty climbers

Watch out for this guy, he trains by bouldering!