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What methods do guides use to climb safely if their client doesn't know how to belay?
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In this scenario a completely green individual wanting to climb outside hires a guide to take them on a multi pitch climb, but they have never touched a rope or belay device before. I'm curious to learn how the leader goes about doing this. Do they simply teach the client how to lead belay or are they utilizing some version of a toprope solo setup? |
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I've heard guides on the Solar Slab in Red Rocks describe what they do up there as free soloing with rope drag. The frequency with which they place gear bears this out. |
J B wrote: This is what I was thinking. I guess they could also climb with a three person team, but then the first-timer is essentially paying for two guides. |
ClimbMore WorkLess wrote: Am not a guide. Still, a client that has never touched a rope or belay device? “Soloing with rope drag” is one thing. Leaving a complete noob at a mid-route anchor on any significant multi-pitch seems unwise let alone assuming they can follow through the crux(es). Edit: Still, your question of course yet applies with an unknown partner with unknown belay skills / savvy. |
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One assumes the client won't catch you and don't fall off, that's why the competent lead climbing ability requirement is so high. |
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Do you make the follower belay just to give them something to do? Or just so they aren't offended by the guide soloing the route in approach shoes with no belay while they struggle bus up it. I've climbed in this style with absolute beginners, and I don't even tell them to belay, just make sure that the rope feeds ok. I like free soloing 5.6 all day. I don't like doing it with the option to be pulled off at any moment by an idiot follower who thought they needed to yank the rope for some reason. |
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The client is always trying to kill you. it doesn't matter how much experience they have. |
ClimbMore WorkLess wrote: Highly unlikely a guide will take a completely new climber on a multipitch for their first climb ever. |
FrankPS wrote: This. If a client without any experience wants a multi-pitch as their climb, they're paying for a second guide to come along. My friends that do guide multi-pitch often won't even take a new client that does have experience on a multi-pitch climb unless another guide can vouch for them or they do a simulated ground school to confirm the knowledge that should be associated with the client's resume. |
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There is a pretty good story of pretty famous climber that was a guide at YMS for awhile. He use to just stack the rope next to the client and then tell him "whatever you do, don't touch the rope..." Then the guide would just solo the pitch while dragging the rope. I definitely did that a few times while guiding but not exactly an approved method. I'd take new climbers out on multi pitch climbs but I'd usually start with a single pitch route first. Sometimes that single pitch just happened to be the first pitch of the multi pitch. One of the required skills of a guide is being able to assess people's knowledge and ability. With enough experience it becomes pretty easy to figure out who will be fine and who won't. Keeping your eyes on the client and being able to coach goes a really long ways. |
Mikey Schaefer wrote: Another funny related guide story while climbing at First Creek Canyon, RR … A guide started leading P1 out of sight but within our hearing range. The client - also out of sight - was belaying. Soon, the client calls out “Could you at least put in a nut or something?!?!” After a pause, the guide calls out from far above him “There! Does that make you feel better?” |
ClimbMore WorkLess wrote: -conduct ground school before climbing to teach belaying -climbing below their standard to minimize chance of falling -many times guides will have the client use an ABD to belay as insurance in case of a fall -really good rope management/restacking to avoid client dealing with a tangle while trying to belay. -coach the client on leaving appropriate slack to avoid getting pulled off while leading -often climb relatively short pitches to maintain visual/verbal communication with the client Leaving a complete noob at a mid-route anchor on any significant multi-pitch seems unwise let alone assuming they can follow through the crux(es). -ground school -coaching both how/when to come off the anchor, and how to climb more difficult sections -efficiency when pulling rope and putting client on belay to avoid opportunity to come off the anchor before being on belay. -Climber assist with a z-drag -picking an appropriate climb for a new climber -shorter pitches to maintain sight/communication -ability to haul and/or lower the client in case they can’t do it or melt down. |
FrankPS wrote: My first was, as was several other people I know, and not with the same guide. |
Bill Lawry wrote: That's awesome!! I've talked to several guides who say they pretty much free solo and don't ever expect someone to catch them. They also say it really helps the nerves and gives the client something to do instead of stress out about having to climb next. |
J C wrote: This is the reality, it depends if the client want's to be involved (i.e gain experience/ be taught or just get up the route). An archeologist who wants to access a cave is different to a wannabe rock climber. Multi-pitch with a gumby you pick a route with big ledges so you can rap-off if you have to. |
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What Peter T said. Any guide who just solos up the pitch isn't doing their client any favors. Part of what they are paying for is to learn about this sport. 2 minutes of superficial belay instruction + actually belaying (presumably with an ABD) goes a long way. Of course the guide still needs to climb like they are not being belayed. |
Yes. First steps towards bringing them out of complete noob-ness before multi. |
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First time climbing outside. Have over a year of gym climbing experience, including lead climbing/belaying. We hire a guide through YMS, and I say "hey some multi-pitch would be cool". He politely says something along the lines of "That might be a bit much for today". For the avoidance of doubt I was also climbing with my then 7 year old, so guiding BOTH of us up a multi-pitch was a slightly more complicated endeavor. We liked it so much so spontaneously booked another day with him later that week. He says we can do multi-pitch. Gearing up for the first pitch, he says "you know how to lead belay, right?" "Yeah yeah of course I do". I proceed to load the ATC backwards. I'm guessing he held on a little tighter after that. |
jackscoldsweat wrote: It goes both ways. You shouldn't be a passive client. Some obviously exceptions (your 5-year-old). There is a reason that most guiding services make clients sign a wavier. |
J B wrote: Somebody is stealing my quote from decades ago (and it is true.) Never had a client catch me, but I have seen it. And the only person who ever got hurt climbing with me (twice on the same project, two years apart) was a fellow guide who took 2 leader falls. Many years later he died guiding Everest. |
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As others have said, we don't typically take a climber out on a multipitch without some way of getting a reasonable idea of their skills being sufficient. |
