Professions for a Climbing Career

Thank you all for responding! I really appreciate it. It's a hard decision for me but this has given me a little bit of perspective. Hope you are all well and can continue to train/climb through these times!

TL:DR (okay, I skimmed)

I suspect the response to this post will vary with the current recession and potential depression based on related topics from a year ago)

Tbh, I would focus on income for now.  Wait for the virus/economy to "stabilize" then consider the climbing:work balance.

I honestly cant picture any company hiring some entry level, code camp "engineer" and giving them the free reigns of remote work. Prepare for some soul crushing??

Also, I dont know but your whole "I dont want to be a work slave" like everyone else statement seems weird. Some people work on stuff that actually matters or makes a difference..or just shit that they're passionate about. 

Working for a big tech company can pay you very well - https://www.levels.fyi/ - though you might find yourself having to move to get the higher tier salaries. A masters or PhD will be helpful, too.

It's a fine enough occupation being a software engineer, if you're into that sort of thing. It's full of frustration, stupidness, and rapidly changes owing to it's own immaturity.

I would consider most SWE roles to not be professional engineering roles. There's not generally the same reliability, approach, community responsibility and seriousness to the profession compared to my limited experience in more traditional engineering. In SWE we're currently in a fad of "move fast, break stuff". The nearest thing to a work style and project management theory is Agile, which is some mix of cult, opinion, bad ideas, and good ideas created by some freelance programmers while on a ski holiday.

SWE has no formal educational requirements, and there's no notable supervising professional body or regulation. For the most part, anyone off the street can work as a SWE. That's why we can have 3 month bootcamps to be a SWE that are actually viable.

That makes your future employment a bit less predictable. For an instance a few years back there was a fad to outsource software development to India. There are indeed legions of developers in India, but also Eastern Europe, Asia, that will work for a lot less than you. It sounds like a great idea, though it didn't work very well. Maybe there will be another iteration of the fad.

But right now, the money can be obscenely good if you want to play the FAANG game. It is a game, too. Passing the interviews involves practice and planning, unless you happen to be one of the few that happens to know the very specific questions they tend to ask already. Famously there was this guy's experience - https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768?lang=en

(I've just talked about the good pay. Not how it relates to climbing. But the more you get paid the more time you can take off, and the more you can climb!)

I've heard some contractors at Microsoft schedule their 6-month contracts around the ski season. I'm thinking of going a similar route once I get a few more years of experience.

I used to do 1099 contract work, but I never had good enough contracts to take 6 months off after one ended.  I know people who do that.

Teaching is a great career that allows ample time to climb. I teach middle school biology. I love my job, and I love that I get 11 weeks each year of unfettered climbing time.

r m wrote: 
It's a fine enough occupation being a software engineer, if you're into that sort of thing. It's full of frustration, stupidness, and rapidly changes owing to it's own immaturity.

I would consider most SWE roles to not be professional engineering roles. There's not generally the same reliability, approach, community responsibility and seriousness to the profession compared to my limited experience in more traditional engineering. In SWE we're currently in a fad of "move fast, break stuff". The nearest thing to a work style and project management theory is Agile, which is some mix of cult, opinion, bad ideas, and good ideas created by some freelance programmers while on a ski holiday.

This is so true. CS master with an engineering degree prior to that here.... though the name says the same thing at the end, the culture is indeed very different.

r m wrote: Working for a big tech company can pay you very well - https://www.levels.fyi/  ... But right now, the money can be obscenely good if you want to play the FAANG game.

(I've just talked about the good pay. Not how it relates to climbing. But the more you get paid the more time you can take off, and the more you can climb!)

First of all, the chance of one landing a FTE job in the FAANGs starting from a complete career switch through a bootcamp program (even after accruing reasonable amount of experience) is pretty low (not anywhere as low as making it as a pro BB player, but still), so I wouldn't necessarily count on it. As for the more you get paid the more time you can take off, it's true in theory, but it rarely works out that way.

As for software engineering vs "real" engineering debate. I never found the "real" engineering students in college any more competent. Sure, a certified engineer has past an exam of some minimum level of competency (and I bet a lot of practicing engineers will flunk the exam w/o preparation). In that sense, I'm not sure how different the FAANG interviews are: data structures & algorithms are fundamental to programming, especially at the scale these code are deployed by these companies. And so yes, many brilliant people are rejected, but that's by design: a minimum bar is there to keep the false positive (instead of false negative) rate low. It's far from being perfect in either field.

I heard some of the old school desk jockey types actually started standing all day for better health.
Also there are about a dozen threads on this exact subject to research if you desire

I always thought nursing would have been a cool career. 3 days on and 4 days off with decent pay...

But, right now, I’m glad I’m an engineer...

Was in a very similar situation to you, apart from the career, so I'll address moving to the Front Range for passion pursuits first.

The crowding you hear about is real, and still growing. The crags are crowded on the weekends. The gyms are crowded on the weeknights. The vast majority (or so it seems) are here to do the same things as you. Housing is expensive. There's some traffic. It isn't a small mountain town. It was smaller than the Chicago I moved from, but I was a little surprised at how crowded certain times and places can be. Just FYI.

That being said, I'd prioritize a job that gives you flexibility. If you can get outside on weekdays, great. If you can get to the gym in the morning or middle of the day, great. You'll be able to avoid the crowds and have a much more pleasant experience.

If that's coding, then great. I think others have given some great insight into coding. I think if I was starting over and knew I wanted to prioritize climbing over all else (which, be sure that's what you want. Climbing > everything means sacrificing something. Money, time, a career you actually like, living location or situation) I'd probably do nursing. The schedule, as mentioned, gives you blocks of time off. The training you receive is helpful for a passion that takes you outside into potentially dangerous situations. You can easily pick up and go anywhere and fairly easily get hired again. Work and climb in CO for a while and get bored? Quit and go spend some time in Red Rock. When the money runs out, get a job in Vegas. Seems to work pretty well for Nik Berry. But (again secondhand) nursing can be exhausting. Can you leave that exhaustion and baggage at work and still want to climb?

Honestly, there's no easy answer. I'm still looking. Looked at guiding. Looked at personal training. Looked at firefighting. At the end of the day, I haven't left my cushy office job. It pays well, I know I'll be able to get to the gym every day and outside on the weekends. Yes, I'll fight crowds, but I can afford to live and have a 401k. 

reboot wrote:

First of all, the chance of one landing a FTE job in the FAANGs starting from a complete career switch through a bootcamp program (even after accruing reasonable amount of experience) is pretty low (not anywhere as low as making it as a pro BB player, but still), so I wouldn't necessarily count on it. As for the more you get paid the more time you can take off, it's true in theory, but it rarely works out that way.

As for software engineering vs "real" engineering debate. I never found the "real" engineering students in college any more competent...

First of all, the chance of one landing a FTE job in the FAANGs starting from a complete career switch through a bootcamp program (even after accruing reasonable amount of experience) is pretty low

I agree if you just came out of bootcamp, but with a reasonable amount of experience it's viable. You have to work for it depending on your level of talent, but still viable for intelligent motivated people. FAANG do have entry level positions, too. Whether it's likely or not depends entirely on the individual!

I never found the "real" engineering students in college any more competent.

It's a good thing they're just students, and not signing off on the designs whose failure will cause injury or death :)

I wrote a longer reply, but then deleted it. It wasn't useful to the OP.

8 years into a software career and i don't climb any harder now. You seem young. Is it too late to pick wealthier parents?

Personally, I think you are missing the mark.  It isn't about earning more, but rather spending less.  The people I know who climb the most live simply on seasonal incomes and devote more time to recreation than work.  

I'll second Buster, though, on two points.  First, working a job that makes you harder will be of benefit if you want to stay strong, unless you have tremendous will to train anytime you aren't working or climbing.

Also, if you are able to stay free of consumer and student debt, fund a retirement account, and buy a property that can either serve as a home and / or provide rental income (ideally both), you are quite well prepared to climb your face off.

r m wrote: I agree if you just came out of bootcamp, but with a reasonable amount of experience it's viable. You have to work for it depending on your level of talent, but still viable for intelligent motivated people. FAANG do have entry level positions, too. Whether it's likely or not depends entirely on the individual!

I like to be realistic, so I can't assume someone who I've never met (and admittedly is more interested in climbing) will be in the top 5% (or better) of motivation and talent. According to your own link, the "entry" position in a FAAM(Microsoft for Netflix)G pays $152K-$184K, so not very entry pay. Yes, plenty of fresh college grads are hired, but they are also hired partly on potential. The longer you are in the industry, the less likely these companies would consider you for the entry position. Can it happen? One of my friends went through what OP probably has signed up for (plus a few years of experience) got really close, so sure. But just don't expect (in the statistical sense) for that to happen, and neither should it be the yardstick of success.

For better or worse, these companies don't operate like the old IBM, where you can be hired in at a true entry level (or supposedly even as a janitor) and rise thru the ranks.

Philip Magistro wrote: Personally, I think you are missing the mark.  It isn't about earning more, but rather spending less.  The people I know who climb the most live simply on seasonal incomes and devote more time to recreation than work.  

I'll second Buster, though, on two points.  First, working a job that makes you harder will be of benefit if you want to stay strong, unless you have tremendous will to train anytime you aren't working or climbing.

Also, if you are able to stay free of consumer and student debt, fund a retirement account, and buy a property that can either serve as a home and / or provide rental income (ideally both), you are quite well prepared to climb your face off.

Tell us more about these jobs that make you harder?

Hi Rise window washer.
I did that for a few years back in the 70s in Los Angeles, and Santa Monica,
while I was going to Santa Monica City College.

Philip Magistro wrote: It isn't about earning more, but rather spending less.  The people I know who climb the most live simply on seasonal incomes and devote more time to recreation than work.

These are common fallacies.  Reality is recreating costs money, and so does the time to do it.  Those with no money spend a lot of time doing nothing with their lives.  You can't climb all day every day, and you need money for gear and travel. My advice is to get good at something you enjoy doing that pays well and make yourself productive with it, the rest will come second.

Climbing will mean different things through your life. Free time will always be of enormous value in your life. Consider occupations that allow for free time and that you would be happy doing down the road. I chose nursing, you could certainly make many arguments against it but I find I have much more free time than many of my peers.