Left behind Rope on outer space (Two tree ledge)-Reward for removing it

Hi,
 We made the bad decision to rap off outer space/snow Creek wall and got stuck at 2 tree ledge after dark. We were unable to find the rap station from the ledge so we decided to bail and rap off a piton and a nut. While pulling the ropes, they got stuck and we had to cut the remaining ends above the rap station we were at to make it the rest of the down. The ropes that are left are two 60m that are both cut roughly past the midpoint. 

If anyone reads this and is planning on climbing outer space, I will reward $75 for retrieving the rope. It should be easily retrievable from 2 tree ledge but I don't have a usable rope at the moment. I don't want it back, I just hate to leave trash on the route, so you can just send me a photo and I can PayPal.

One of the best “lost” posts I’ve ever seen on MP!!  Good on ya!

I’m sure someone will be climbing it today. If you don’t hear, I might as well climb it again tomorrow.

J.Roatch wrote: I’m sure someone will be climbing it today. If you don’t hear, I might as well climb it again tomorrow.

Let me know! 

Ropes were removed and hauled out. Sorry to hear about your epic. 

Or does he decline the reward and show that he too is a good guy and a steward of the mountains

​Absolutely he collects the reward.  $75 seems like a fair trade off for a poor decision by those who left the trash behind.  

Why would you onsight rappel Snow Creek Wall?  Did you know beforehand where the anchors were?  They is no rap station on 2 tree ledge.

You could have followed the other parties down without issue.

Jplotz wrote: Or does he decline the reward and show that he too is a good guy and a steward of the mountains

Absolutely he collects the reward.  $75 seems like a fair trade off for a poor decision by those who left the trash behind.  

Why would you onsight rappel Snow Creek Wall?  Did you know beforehand where the anchors were?  They is no rap station on 2 tree ledge.

You could have followed the other parties down without issue.

1. I agree with you. $75 is reasonable trade for cleaning out our trash from a wilderness area.

2. The Blake Herrington guidebook said that there was a anchor on 2 tree ledge.

Varun Ramesh wrote:
1

2. The Blake Herrington guidebook said that there was a anchor on 2 tree ledge.

I highly doubt Blake would say there's an anchor on 2 Tree Ledge because there isn't one. 

Varun Ramesh wrote:

2. The Blake Herrington guidebook said that there was a anchor on 2 tree ledge.

The guidebook I wrote (Cascades Rock) mentions only the slung tree (and the possibility of rappelling from it) on 2-tree ledge. This tree is just right of the start of P3 of Outer Space and has been slung with cord and rappel rings in the past. I don't know if it is currently equipped. Obviously nobody can confirm or guarantee that any tat or webbing would never be bootied, so one would potentially have to sacrifice a bit of cord if none exists when you wanted to rappel off this or any tree. That's one reason why it's a good idea to have you chalk bag belt made out of cord. 

Perhaps to JPlotz's larger point about the wisdom of rappelling vs scrambling off from the top of the climb, many first time climbers will probably find the walk off to be faster, despite needing tennis shoes. The rappel descent involves 4-5 double rope rappels mostly via anchors not seen on the ascent. It's probably ideal for a party of 3 (already using 2 ropes) climbing a route at their limit and not wanting to bring extra shoes.

JPlotz is correct in saying there's no anchor if he only means there's no bolted anchor. He's wrong in my view when he says "there's no rap station" since a tree (that's usually wrapped in webbing) or just tree+chunk of cord = rappel station. He has probably spent more days on SCW that the next 3 people combined, so he knows the terrain for sure.

Have fun out there!

blakeherrington wrote:

The guidebook I wrote (Cascades Rock) mentions only a slung tree (and the possibility of rappelling from it) on 2-tree ledge. This tree is just right of the start of P3 of Outer Space and has been slung with cord and rappel rings in the past. I don't know if it is currently equipped. Obviously nobody can confirm or guarantee that any tat or webbing would never be bootied, so one would potentially have to sacrifice a bit of cord if none exists when you wanted to rappel off this or any tree. That's one reason why it's a good idea to have you chalk bag belt made out of 6mm cord. 

Perhaps to JPlotz's larger point about the wisdom of rappelling vs scrambling off from the top of the climb, many first time climbers will probably find the walk off to be faster, despite needing tennis shoes. The rappel descent involves 4-5 double rope rappels mostly via anchors not seen on the ascent.

JPlotz is correct in saying there's no anchor if he only means there's no bolted anchor. He has probably spent more days on SCW that the next 3 people combined, so he knows the terrain for sure.

Have fun out there!

Hi Blake,

First of all thanks for writing a great guide book. To Jplotz comment of an anchor on 2-tree ledge; the tat/slung tree you mentioned is the anchor I was referring to. In my sleep-deprived head tat/slung tree =anchor.I think we found the tree you refer to, but it had no slings. By the time we got down to two tree ledge, it was quite dark and we did not feel like venturing out on the ledge without roping up again.

We 100% take the blame for not checking if the tree was slung or not on the way up. We made a couple of other blunders, including not walking off, which led to our situation and seem quite obvious in hindsight.  

Briggs Lazalde wrote: If I accidentally had a trash bag full of our camps trash fall off our vehicle I'd absolutely pay to have someone do my dirty work and pick it up for me if I am say hours away. If I left climb gear bailing or rapping and things got sketch I'd pay for someone to retrieve it if they requested however trash and left behind gear fall into two categories of litter on an ethical level. I understand that and id really hope my fellow climbers did as well

P.s. varun I need some rope segments for making long anchors for where I've been climbing. I may be able to buy and retrieve those off you locally. Pm me if u get them back

Briggs,

You might have to talk to Marlin Thorman as he still has the rope. 

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.

Mr. Plotz, you can't expect your average climber to use the same judgment as a guy on your level at your home crag.  

Stoked your party is down safe and gained some experience.  Sorry to hear about your ropes. 

Eric: Thanks for your kind words. We definitely learned a lot. No amount of climbing/rescue clinics can ever make up the experience of a single bad day on the wall.

JPlotz: In retrospect, I agree with you but I also must say you're being a little hypocritical because in this blog post ( wenatcheeoutdoors.org/2016/…) you very clearly state: "After this day, we were convinced that the rappels were an improvement over the loose, knee-jarring, walk-off route. "
My friend actually read this blog post before we went on the trip and this, along with multitudes of trip post, was one of the motivations for us choosing to rappel the route vs walking off.

Varun

ha ha, that's kind of funny.  doh!
anyway, i completely applaud how you approached reaching closure on this issue.

JPlotz: In retrospect, I agree with you but I also must say you're being a little hypocritical because in this blog post ( wenatcheeoutdoors.org/2016/…) you very clearly state: "After this day, we were convinced that the rappels were an improvement over the loose, knee-jarring, walk-off route. "
My friend actually read this blog post before we went on the trip and this, along with multitudes of trip post, was one of motivations for us to choosing to rappel the route vs walking off.

Varun

The difference being that I actually knew (and know) where I was going when rappelling, which I have done without issue a dozen times. 

You and your partner had no idea where to go on your raps. You topped out with others on top getting ready to hike safely down the backside, but chose to just toss your ropes down into the void in the hopes of finding rap stations, which should have been clear that there were none on your way up the route.

Just confused by your mindset. That's all.  Sorry if I have come across as overly critical. You got  down safely so that's  what counts.  We have all made less than optimal decisions over the course of our time on the rock.  

although hiking down the backside with a bunch of other folks might end up being unsafe as well.  it's been a while since i have been up there, but i remember wanting to hustle down it so we could do it with nobody above us.

As crappy as the hikedown is, it's gotten noticeably easier to follow with cairnes and a path. It will always be loose and hard to follow in spots, but if that is your deal breaker, then maybe climbers shouldn't venture beyond roadside crags in WA.

Jplotz wrote:

The difference being that I actually knew (and know) where I was going when rappelling, which I have done without issue a dozen times. 

You and your partner had no idea where to go on your raps. You topped out with others on top getting ready to hike safely down the backside, but chose to just toss your ropes down into the void in the hopes of finding rap stations, which should have been clear that there were none on your way up the route.

Just confused by your mindset. That's all.  Sorry if I have come across as overly critical. You got  down safely so that's  what counts.  We have all made less than optimal decisions over the course of our time on the rock.  

John,

Yes, like others in this post have pointed out, you know better than nearly 100% of climbers about SCW. There is no arguing that. However, I don't think we were completely ignorant about the risks of rapping down vs hiking. On the contrary, I think we carefully planned for days and made a conscious decision to rappel because we thought it was safer. As it turns out our planning was not sufficient. If the rap anchor, that you (in your blog) and Blake mention, was still around, things would have worked out very differently.

Our argument for raping down was a follows: After reading multiple guidebooks (Blake's, Nelson's, and Kramer's) and having read trip reports (including yours), we concluded that there is an obvious rap route down the wall, between the routes Outerspace and Hyperspace. We were a group of three going up with 2X60 m ropes already and nowhere in on the internet or literature did anyone say that rapping was a bad idea- we even saw a rap anchor to climbers left at the start of the last pitch on Outer Space. We arrived at the top close to 7 PM and met another group of climbers descending down, at this pointed we debated hiking down but one of my partners mentioned that he does not have his hiking boots because we had not discussed hiking off and he wanted to save weight. This sealed out decision to rap down vs hike off. 

• Varun Ramesh wrote:

John,

Yes, like others in this post have pointed out, you know better than nearly 100% of climbers about SCW. There is no arguing that. However, I don't think we were completely ignorant about the risks of rapping down vs hiking. On the contrary, I think we carefully planned for days and made a conscious decision to rappel because we thought it was safer. As it turns out our planning was not sufficient. If the rap anchor, that you (in your blog) and Blake mention, was still around, things would have worked out very differently.

Our argument for raping down was a follows: After reading multiple guidebooks (Blake's, Nelson's, and Kramer's) and having read trip reports (including yours), we concluded that there is an obvious rap route down the wall, between the routes Outerspace and Hyperspace. We were a group of three going up with 2X60 m ropes already and nowhere in on the internet or literature did anyone say that rapping was a bad idea- we even saw a rap anchor to climbers left at the start of the last pitch on Outer Space. We arrived at the top close to 7 PM and met another group of climbers descending down, at this pointed we debated hiking down but one of my partners mentioned that he does not have his hiking boots because we had not discussed hiking off and he wanted to save weight. This sealed out decision to rap down vs hike off. 

No I don't know better than others. I've just had the good fortune to climb with others who know better than I do. 

I have learned the hard way that bad things happen when you rappel ​into the void​​​ without knowing where or if the raps go.

You made it down safe. Good deal end of story. Just don't think you deserve the good job 'ol chum back slapping that you're getting on here, considering your options at the time.

I guess you could have just left the abandoned ropes up there and never offered a reward for their removal, so I have to concede that that is a class gesture on your part. 

This thread is gold!  I think there used to be an anchor on that "tree", but that was many years ago. I've never done it, but I wonder how long it takes to rap the SCW when you know all the "correct" anchors? Compare that to the 30 mins it takes to do the walk off (once you know the route - which requires NO RAPS for the record).  Having to bring some walk off shoes seems like the only downside, which I'd take over hauling a second rope any day.  If you get benighted up there on your first lap, you'll have to employ actual alpine climbing problem solving skills.  Planning ahead (e.g., bringing a headlamp and maybe some bail gear) will make all the difference.  If not, you can add your name to the long list of people who have taken a nice dirt nap up there.  Pro Tip - the creek that runs on the skier's right of the walk off slope is a natural spring and can be consumed in an "emergency" (like after your first time up Hyperspace, which tends to deliver hot cottonmouth).

If one decides to rap off that small tree on 2 tree ledge, it can be done with a single 70 in two raps plus some 4th class down climbing. The first rappel is a 33 meter rope stretcher to a bolted anchor on climber's left.  Second rap will leave you short of the ground by ~ 40'

Alternatively one can also reverse the 3rd/4th class scramble pitch to the anchor at the top of the 'regular start' to OS and rap from there with a single 70 and some easy down climbing.