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reboot
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Aug 2, 2017
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.
· Joined Jul 2006
· Points: 125
Rui Ferreira wrote:Peter, the "Beast Tamer" is performed with a 48kg KB, not an easy feat for most climbers. Well, most climbers don't weigh 200+ lbs either. Still, quite a few male climbers can perform 1 arm pull ups, which makes 48kg child's play as a % of BW. There are a lot of areas climbers can learn a thing or 2 from other sports, I doubt training pulling strength is one.
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Rui Ferreira
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Aug 2, 2017
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Boulder, CO
· Joined Jul 2003
· Points: 903
reboot wrote:Well, most climbers don't weigh 200+ lbs either. Still, quite a few male climbers can perform 1 arm pull ups, which makes 48kg child's play as a % of BW. There are a lot of areas climbers can learn a thing or 2 from other sports, I doubt training pulling strength is one. it is not a prerequisite to weigh 200+lbs to obtain the certification, the 48kg is a standard for men, 24 kg for women.
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Peter Beal
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Aug 2, 2017
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Boulder Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,825
Rui Ferreira wrote:Peter, the "Beast Tamer" is performed with a 48kg KB, not an easy feat for most climbers. Read the weight wrong but actually I would imagine that most climbers at a corresponding level of strength would find this feasible. I recently hung on a 15 mm edge for almost 10 seconds with 100 pounds on and I weigh around 130. I can usually do a pullup on the same edge with 80 attached. With a bit more training, I think a +48kg pullup is feasible. I'd like to see the BT do their pullup on an edge!
The fact that the BT weight or movements are not weight-scaled is very suspicious to me regardless.
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Mark E Dixon
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Aug 2, 2017
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Possunt, nec posse videntur
· Joined Nov 2007
· Points: 984
Peter, you are not "most climbers".
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reboot
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Aug 2, 2017
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.
· Joined Jul 2006
· Points: 125
Rui Ferreira wrote:it is not a prerequisite to weigh 200+lbs to obtain the certification, the 48kg is a standard for men, 24 kg for women. I know it's not. But looking at these dudes, they are all way more muscular & heavier than most climbers. The fact that the certification isn't expressed as a % of BW is pretty suspect, but even in the world of tweener climbers, the certification isn't that impressive.
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Rui Ferreira
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Aug 2, 2017
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Boulder, CO
· Joined Jul 2003
· Points: 903
Yes, I get it! Climbing training science is so advanced that it is acceptable to depreciate protocols and practices in all other sports.
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Rui Ferreira
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Aug 2, 2017
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Boulder, CO
· Joined Jul 2003
· Points: 903
Peter Beal wrote:Read the weight wrong but actually I would imagine that most climbers at a corresponding level of strength would find this feasible. I recently hung on a 15 mm edge for almost 10 seconds with 100 pounds on and I weigh around 130. I can usually do a pullup on the same edge with 80 attached. With a bit more training, I think a +48kg pullup is feasible. I'd like to see the BT do their pullup on an edge!
The fact that the BT weight or movements are not weight-scaled is very suspicious to me regardless. Clearly some of us are inferior in our training if we are not able to achieve such easy feats of strength and given that you laughed at the Strong First article instructing proper technique and build up to achieving the 48kg BT, perhaps you can enlighten us on how to achieve such feats the "Climber's Way"
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Will S
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Aug 2, 2017
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Joshua Tree
· Joined Nov 2006
· Points: 1,061
I know I'm way off the original topic here but since the pullup training is getting kicked around, Have any of you ever failed on a route because you lacked pulling strength or pulling endurance? I don't mean when you were a rank beginner who couldn't do more than a couple pullups, but recently. I'd guess everyone in this thread climbs at least 5.12 and has good pull strength. Fixed bar pullup training seems like a good way to inflame your elbows for something of questionable value. Then again, I like to deadlift and at this point continuing to train them probably has no real value to me for climbing purposes, I just like doing them. Because I like them, they motivate me to get into the weight room where I end up doing other things that are beneficial while I'm there.
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jaredj
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Aug 2, 2017
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Jan 2013
· Points: 165
Peter Beal wrote: The fact that the BT weight or movements are not weight-scaled is very suspicious to me regardless.
Regarding the argument about the merits of pull-up strength: I think one reason is that the target demographic (and general aesthetic that Tsatsouline and others try to cultivate) is military / LEO - centric. My understanding is that the physical fitness evaluations those types of "industrial athletes" get are not scaled for body size / weight, therefore they don't differentiate this in their training recommendation stuff, either. I generally agree that ignoring size seems overly simplistic, but part of what Tsatsouline is going for in his recommendations is a high degree of simplicity in programming; I'd argue that it's a corner of the market for training that he's trying to fill ("know-nothing" or "don't follow the program" type athletes).
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Peter Beal
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Aug 2, 2017
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Boulder Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,825
Rui Ferreira wrote:Clearly some of us are inferior in our training if we are not able to achieve such easy feats of strength and given that you laughed at the Strong First article instructing proper technique and build up to achieving the 48kg BT, perhaps you can enlighten us on how to achieve such feats the "Climber's Way" If you go back and reread my comments Rui, I think you will find that I said "Read the weight wrong but actually I would imagine that most climbers at a corresponding level of strength would find this feasible." not that it was easy.
I read the initial weight wrong as I mentioned but saying something is "kind of funny" is not the same as "laughable"
I'd be happy to enlighten you but it doesn't really sound like you're interested. Let me know if/when you are.
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Patrick Shyvers
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Aug 2, 2017
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Fort Collins, CO
· Joined Jul 2013
· Points: 10
Will S wrote:Have any of you ever failed on a route because you lacked pulling strength or pulling endurance? I don't mean when you were a rank beginner who couldn't do more than a couple pullups, but recently. Every time I try to pull a big inverted dyno and come up comically short? But generally I've found improving my body strength does not prevent failure, instead it allows me to climb with more control and conserve my finger strength. I rarely fail a route because I have a weak core- I fail a route because I burn out my grip, because I am climbing sloppily, because I have a weak core.
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Rui Ferreira
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Aug 2, 2017
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Boulder, CO
· Joined Jul 2003
· Points: 903
Peter Beal wrote: I'd be happy to enlighten you but it doesn't really sound like you're interested. Let me know if/when you are.
I am interested in finding out the proper way to achieve 177% of BW hanging strength and for that matter also be able to do pull ups at 162% of BW.
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Kevin Stricker
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Aug 2, 2017
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Evergreen, CO
· Joined Oct 2002
· Points: 1,242
Regarding the Beast Tamer challenge I think Jared is on the right track. The test is self limiting as those who have more muscle mass to make the press easier will have more of a challenge with the pull-up and pistol squat. While climbers might excel at the pull-up, I think one arm pressing 100 lbs or doing a weighted pistol with the same would be a comical display by the majority of climbers I know. Considering there are thousands of Strongfirst members and hundreds of instructors and the list of successful participants is still pretty low, I think the challenge may be harder than you think. I would love to see any member of this forum achieve the goal, my bet goes to Will S......
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Will S
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Aug 2, 2017
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Joshua Tree
· Joined Nov 2006
· Points: 1,061
Not me, I'd have my money on Reboot. I think I could do the pull right now. The pistol I could probably work up to in about 6mo. The one-arm press would be the killer. Might play around with some presses tomorrow and see where I'm at, we've got plenty of kettlebells up to at least 40kg. EDIT: Just walked into the garage and grabbed 50lbs of plates, did a pistol on each leg and felt like I had at least 20lb more in the tank, so it might only take a couple months (hard to hold more plates in front than that, need a bell).
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reboot
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Aug 2, 2017
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· Joined Jul 2006
· Points: 125
Not right now. In my pre-climbing (martial arts) days, I imagine I could've done it @ 155 (under 150 now and trying to get closer to 140), but I'm only 5'6" on a very good day. Pull will be very easy for me, and probably around the same as Will for pistol (I've worked to 1 rep 40kg last winter for fun). I also need to see where I'm at w/ press (I still crank out some hand stand pushups but not close to where I was before). That all said, there's a guy @ the climbing gym that is way, way stronger than me; I think he mainly lifts and boulders occasionally (very good at pinch/compression but has no chance on cross moves). And I've no illusion on how well I'd compare to an amateur gymnast on BW feats of strength. What I'm trying to say is if you consider yourself a weightlifter, the BT challenge should be considered the minimum standard of a serious amateur, maybe ~5.12 in climbing terms (definitely not 5.14)? If it was a climbing training program that takes you to this level, would you consider it the be-all, end-all program? Edited to add: Ok, so my press is the weak link (not a surprise) @ ~30kg. Time to put in some front delt work now & maybe work the press & pistol to 40kg this winter @ my current weight? No real interest in completing the BT challenge though.
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Peter Beal
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Aug 2, 2017
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Boulder Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,825
Rui Ferreira wrote:I am interested in finding out the proper way to achieve 177% of BW hanging strength and for that matter also be able to do pull ups at 162% of BW. Happy to help with that. What workout gear do you have access to?
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Mark E Dixon
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Aug 3, 2017
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Possunt, nec posse videntur
· Joined Nov 2007
· Points: 984
Peter, I'll take your suggestions if Rui doesn't want them. Assume access to the BRC and Spot. A hang board set up at home with edges from 8 mm to 32 mm. Counterwieght system to add/remove weight up to about 100 pounds. My dream goal would be a one arm on an 18 mm edge. Or even just an 8 second single arm hang on an 18 mm edge for that matter. I don't care about two arm weighted pull ups.
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Peter Beal
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Aug 3, 2017
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Boulder Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,825
Mark E Dixon wrote:Peter, I'll take your suggestions if Rui doesn't want them. Assume access to the BRC and Spot. A hang board set up at home with edges from 8 mm to 32 mm. Counterwieght system to add/remove weight up to about 100 pounds. My dream goal would be a one arm on an 18 mm edge. Or even just an 8 second single arm hang on an 18 mm edge for that matter. I don't care about two arm weighted pull ups. One arm pullup on an 18mm edge?
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Rui Ferreira
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Aug 3, 2017
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Boulder, CO
· Joined Jul 2003
· Points: 903
Peter Beal wrote:Happy to help with that. What workout gear do you have access to? At home I have gym rings, the two Rock Prodigy hangboards, campus board with the three sizes of Metolius campus rungs (5 each) plus old Franklin rungs (2.5 inches wide with pockets) For KB I have 30, 35, 40 and doubles in 50lbs. I also have assorted weight plates going up to 150 lbs. I can change the rings out for a hanging bar. I addition I have access to Movement gym and the Spot
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Peter Beal
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Aug 3, 2017
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Boulder Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,825
Rui Ferreira wrote:At home I have gym rings, the two Rock Prodigy hangboards, campus board with the three sizes of Metolius campus rungs (5 each) plus old Franklin rungs (2.5 inches wide with pockets) For KB I have 30, 35, 40 and doubles in 50lbs. I also have assorted weight plates going up to 150 lbs. I can change the rings out for a hanging bar. I addition I have access to Movement gym and the Spot You would probably be best off using the biggest metolius edge for hangs to start. Is there room for one on the board with the Rock Prodigy boards? If you want to, PM me about this
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