Devils Lake Toprope Clusterf*** PART 3

Eli Chasewrote:

Allowing bolts would deface the natural features for every visitor. 

This is your best argument? Its just not true. Hikers / other visitors don't think twice about bolts. 

James Schroederwrote:

I think it looks more like this:

Very nice meme - big fan. Am I the angry guy with tears streaming down my face? Or the idiot? 

grug gwrote:

Very nice meme - big fan. Am I the angry guy with tears streaming down my face? Or the idiot? 

I have no idea who you are. I figured I would humorously respond to your assertion that, "...most of this sentiment stems from locals that haven't experienced a crag with bolts" - which is demonstrably false. If you want to rehash the already well-beaten dead horse of bolts at the Lake, I'm going to do it in a lighthearted way.

I'm the biggest sporto around, and I'm against bolts on DL quartzite. 

Put me in the pro-bolt category (I don't climb at the lake anymore, so who cares what I think) for three reasons.

1. The perma cluster of neon anchor slings every weekend is ugly

2. Save the clifftop trees

3. Convenience 

Safety is a non-issue, it's just as easy to fall off the cliff or build an unsafe anchor on bolts as on natural anchors

Anyone want to get out tomorrow and lead like real gumbies? (Not a joke, would be siked on 5.11 range)

Jay Knowerwrote:

I'm the biggest sporto around, and I'm against bolts on DL quartzite. 

Anchor bolts do not equate to sport climbing.  

Local here.  Love the no bolts ethic at the lake.  Makes it an inconvenient commitment to climb for the day, which I appreciate.  Plenty of sport areas for those who want/need bolts - and I count myself among this crowd, sometimes.  

chris treggewrote:

Makes it an inconvenient commitment to climb

Lol what a weird sentiment about your local crag. 

Speaking of REAL bolt controversies, and reading through the new NPS guidance on managing climbing in Wilderness, I wonder how all those new bolts on Snake Dike will fare?  The cut-off date for bolts to be grandfathered in NPS wilderness areas is 4 January 2025, so these additional bolts are not covered.

And more relevant to the discussion here, I wonder what folks would think about allowing bolted anchors to be maintained at Devil's Lake if they were placed before 1 January 1965?  This seems to be roughly the situation generations of climbers at DL have maintained.  Not that the DNR is anywhere close to enacting a policy like this, just wondering what a few of the local climbers would think?

grug gwrote:

This is your best argument? Its just not true. Hikers / other visitors don't think twice about bolts. 

You might have to actually visit the property to understand why Eli is right and you are wrong, "grug".  However, I don't think this has been the main consideration of the generations of climbers who have maintained DL as a trad stronghold.

And earlier this week I was in a meeting where a DNR naturalist made it a point to disapprovingly say that he knew the location of the bolts in a nearby SNA, Abelman's Gorge.  There's a lot more going on around here than your vague theories about how climbing ought to be managed.

Too many comments on this page without posting a photo of a toprope anchor clusterfuck. Come on guys. Those are the rules ;)

Really though, I can't imagine how many drillbits It would take to even drill one hole at DL. Rock is so bullet. I personally, love the character it has and the old school, very "trad" experience it provides. I think there would be clusterfucks whether or not there were anchor bolts. We have some outlying areas on other public land with bolted anchors and the shitshows that ensue there are debatably worse. The proximity of these crags to several major metropolitan areas just means more people at the crag which increases the odds of a clusterfuck. Which means we get more pictures to post here 

Along with all of this, the WDNR rules dictate "no permanent alterations to the rock or rock formations" so that means no bolts. Which is great as far as I'm concerned 

Doug Hemkenwrote:

Speaking of REAL bolt controversies, and reading through the new NPS guidance on managing climbing in Wilderness, I wonder how all those new bolts on Snake Dike will fare?  The cut-off date for bolts to be grandfathered in NPS wilderness areas is 4 January 2025, so these additional bolts are not covered.

And more relevant to the discussion here, I wonder what folks would think about allowing bolted anchors to be maintained at Devil's Lake if they were placed before 1 January 1965?  This seems to be roughly the situation generations of climbers at DL have maintained.  Not that the DNR is anywhere close to enacting a policy like this, just wondering what a few of the local climbers would think?

Are there any bolts at the lake besides the singular rap ring on top of Cleo’s needle?

I hope it’s not replaced before I get a chance to come back and rap off the OG ring. 

Garrett Hopkinswrote:

Too many comments on this page without posting a photo of a toprope anchor clusterfuck. Come on guys. Those are the rules ;)

Really though, I can't imagine how many drillbits It would take to even drill one hole at DL. Rock is so bullet. I personally, love the character it has and the old school, very "trad" experience it provides. I think there would be clusterfucks whether or not there were anchor bolts. We have some outlying areas on other public land with bolted anchors and the shitshows that ensue there are debatably worse. The proximity of these crags to several major metropolitan areas just means more people at the crag which increases the odds of a clusterfuck. Which means we get more pictures to post here 

Along with all of this, the WDNR rules dictate "no permanent alterations to the rock or rock formations" so that means no bolts. Which is great as far as I'm concerned 

sorry Garrett :,(

Here’s me being a dumbass throwing gear between solid rock and a detached block and realizing as I take the picture.
The only TR cluster fucks out here are mine since nearly everything is bolted lol

Eli Chasewrote:

Are there any bolts at the lake besides the singular rap ring on top of Cleo’s needle?

I hope it’s not replaced before I get a chance to come back and rap off the OG ring. 

Two bolts on Flatus

Three bolts on Cesarian West Face

Ring Bolt on top of Devils Doorway

RIng Bolt on top of Leaning Tower

I believe thats it, but i could be missing some

I'm generally pro-maintainence of fixed hardware where it's truly necessary. Like fixed pitons that are truly crucial for protection

Garrett Hopkinswrote:

Two bolts on Flatus

Three bolts on Cesarian West Face

Ring Bolt on top of Devils Doorway

RIng Bolt on top of Leaning Tower

I believe thats it, but i could be missing some

I'm generally pro-maintainence of fixed hardware where it's truly necessary. Like fixed pitons that are truly crucial for protection

And that’s just bolts. There’s a lot more fixed gear at The Lake than initially appears when you factor in pitons, etc. 

Thoroughfare, Moderation, a mangled piece on Mouse’s Misery, all within a few feet of one another. If I’m remembering correctly, The Right Twin and The Dick has some metal too. 

Doug Hemkenwrote:

Speaking of REAL bolt controversies, and reading through the new NPS guidance on managing climbing in Wilderness, I wonder how all those new bolts on Snake Dike will fare?  The cut-off date for bolts to be grandfathered in NPS wilderness areas is 4 January 2025, so these additional bolts are not covered.

We need another Snake Dike thread, let's turn this into one 

Garrett Hopkinswrote: I'm generally pro-maintainence of fixed hardware where it's truly necessary. Like fixed pitons that are truly crucial for protection

Are the pitons maintained? I figured all of them were historic and left alone for the most part. I imagine the reality is something like someone coming along with a hammer and whacking in any that are a bit loose, but I find funny the concept of someone replacing them with new ones given the anti-bolting mentality. I also find funny the image of someone bringing bolt glue and gluing them in, as a sort of hipster/stealth bolt. 

Nate Rwrote:

Are the pitons maintained? I figured all of them were historic and left alone for the most part. I imagine the reality is something like someone coming along with a hammer and whacking in any that are a bit loose, but I find funny the concept of someone replacing them with new ones given the anti-bolting mentality. I also find funny the image of someone bringing bolt glue and gluing them in, as a sort of hipster/stealth bolt. 

On sogc one of the bottom pitons was shiny and not rusted. Lots of evidence of old ones that snapped off, and the piton in the middle before the traverse looked quite bad, but there's an obvious . 3.4 crack right next to it. So mostly not maintained and mostly maintains the ethic using modern trad gear

You guys are right: you can manage your local choss pile any way you want.