Half Dome's Snake Dike is being retrobolted - get involved!

Adam Byra wrote:

Retrobolting is bad for the following reasons:

• Hurt feelings: No one will care about old wizards and their talk about scary pre-retrobolt sends on a 5.7
• Fewer injuries: YOSAR won't be able to pick up bodies off this beginner route anymore (lame)
• Gatekeeping: only people who can afford lots of expensive cams should be able to climb in yosemite.
• Boomers: the route was sent by boomers, so they own the rock (like everything else), and they say no. We have to listen to our elders. They know what's good for us
• Totems: tweakers who talk about the perfect slot for their .5 cam will have no one listening to them (sad)

Fewer injuries? You can name only one major accident on snake dike, where a climber with ONE year of experience got off route. Compare that with what, 20,000 people who have climbed the route in the last fifty years? (That’s only 400 people a year, might even be a low estimate).

Gatekeeping? If the run outs are what make it dangerous.. why would you need a lot of expensive cams then? These two points literally cancel each other out. 

The reasons given to support retrobolting it are bullshit and have been shot down a thousand times in previous threads/discussions. It's only the noobs who think they came up with a new idea, and the experienced people sticking their fingers in their ears, who don't see why retro bolting is usually a shitty idea.

It's not about gatekeeping. It's about having respect for future climbers and allowing them to face the challenge (mental and physical) that makes a route special.

It's not a sport route. There are 75' runouts. If you add 16 bolts (2 more per pitch) there's still 38' runouts. And as mentioned the serious injuries happened when people got off route, those 16 bolts wouldn't have done any good anyway, all they would do is rob people of the thrilling experience of climbing an easy dike for 75' .

Every generation has it's shortfalls. How about the generation that loves something sooooo much that they have to invite all their fake insta-friends and blast it out all over social media until it gets too crowded and trashy and then they don't like it anymore and move to the next destructive project? Is the opposite of gatekeeping... ruining?

Li Lin wrote:

I strongly support Erik Sloan’s bolting efforts on Snake Dike.

The argument that “runout and mental pressure are part of the route” should not be used to force unnecessary risk onto everyone else. Your extraordinary experience should not require sacrificing other climbers’ safety. That is like forcing your religious doctrine onto people who do not share your faith.

If you want the original runout experience, you are completely free to skip any bolt you want. Nobody is taking that choice away from you. But removing or opposing protection that could prevent serious injury or death takes that choice away from others.

More bolts give climbers options. They do not force anyone to clip them.

No one is “forcing unnecessary risk” on anyone. No one is forcing anyone to climb this route. I personally held off climbing it until I knew I was good and ready, and it was an amazing experience.

This idea of ‘just don’t clip the bolts’ has been debunked many times before. Psychologically, it would not be the same to lead such a climb because you will always know you have a safe escape, an “out”, if you get scared. It is important that the bolts not even be there in order to get the full meal deal.

Imagine sport bolting the Bachar-Yerian and telling folks… “aw, just skip all those new bolts and it’ll be the same thing”. I am never going to climb the BY and I am perfectly fine with that. At my age and ability, there are many tens of thousands (millions?) of routes I’ll never climb because they are too hard or I deem them too scary and dangerous—I’m perfectly fine with that. I’ll stick to routes that fit my current physical and mental capabilities rather than asking someone to bring the route down to my level. 

Leave the classics as classics for those who have the time, patience, and work ethic to build up to them. 

How can one man decide that this is what's happening, can't he be chased out of the Valley, not as if this man hasn't caused enough annoyance already.

I've been climbing in the Valley for +20 years, spend a lot of money to climb here, (travel from the UK) I love the adventure of the place, or I did!

The history and ethics of Yosemite climbing is amazing but this is Total Bull Shit. Climbed SD a few years back, awesome adventure for those skilled enough. One bad accident and Erik has to go and ruin it for everyone.

Hope some one does a good Job of chopping them. 

Matt de Vaal wrote:

How can one man decide that this is what's happening, can't he be chased out of the Valley, not as if this man hasn't caused enough annoyance already.

I've been climbing in the Valley for +20 years, spend a lot of money to climb here, (travel from the UK) I love the adventure of the place, or I did!

The history and ethics of Yosemite climbing is amazing but this is Total Bull Shit. Climbed SD a few years back, awesome adventure for those skilled enough. One bad accident and Erik has to go and ruin it for everyone.

Hope some one does a good Job of chopping them. 

The history of Yosemite includes decades of drama over ethics, just saying. There will always be an Erik Sloan. 

Woot woot!

M M wrote:

The history of Yosemite includes decades of drama over ethics, just saying. There will always be an Erik Sloan.

This is true, both here and obviously in other aspects of our lives. It demands a modicum of vigilance to preserve what is worth preserving from our history, along with willing souls to correct mistakes.

I don’t denigrate the keyboard warriors here - in this case I am one of them (so far). We need that input - from both sides - to get at least a little sense of what the general consensus is.

I am heartened to see the informal tallies from here and Facebook weigh significantly in favor of not adding bolts. Even better would be if, say, Mountain Project facilitated polling on such things. Best would be if the Erik Sloan’s out there would voice what they would like to see to gather and heed community consensus.

But perhaps one day, the Erik Sloan’s may “win”, and Snake Dike will become yet another multi-pitch sport route. I’m hopeful for not in my lifetime.

Deep deep gratitude to those using their time and resources to correct what has been done to Snake Dike.

M M wrote:

The history of Yosemite includes decades of drama over ethics, just saying. There will always be an Erik Sloan. 

Woot woot!

True. One pops up every 5 to 10 years unfortunately.

Maybe what's needed most is to push this stuff up to one of the first photos on the page

This is actually something that is being looked at and worked on currently by the OnX team.

I can empathize with the reasonable retro-bolter opinions. Is adding a bolt or two going to alter the route so badly that it just ruins it? Well, perhaps to some, probably not for most. Is it the end of the world? No.
But here’s the thing. If you add bolts, any bolts at all, even one, it will always be used as moral justification for the addition of further bolts being added. You can see this already by the number of those who mention Roper having added bolts 60 years ago as their justification for adding a few more now. Well, what’s the harm, it’s only a couple bolts per pitch? Yes, for today! But tomorrow someone will argue for a few more using the already added bolts as weapons to justify them, and that will continue until the route is reduced for the lowest common denominator. If this weren’t the case, I think I, as well as some others might be more flexible in our stance. But I know that’s not the case. I’ve seen it a thousand times, and it’s always the same playbook. Holding onto and preserving a traditional set of values isn’t gatekeeping. It’s enlightenment. 

This is true. Doesn't mean it should continue, we should evolve not repeat the same mistakes. 

Lets face it more are against than for. What gives Sloan the right to be custodian of this amazing place enjoyed by so many?

If I lived anywhere near, I'd be fighting for keeping it as is. (was)    

NateB wrote:

….

That said, in this case, there is a mess of dikes and bolts for other routes where she got lost.  She cited a confusing topo that didn't map it all out for her.  MP has some good diagrams and comments, but they're sort of buried.  Maybe what's needed most is to push this stuff up to one of the first photos on the page.  

An extra bolt might not help as it could still be confused with others.  A plaque or diagram on a plate on a bolt would likely be lacking in needed detail.

I agree - you raise a good point.

Just reread MP’s text description. It seems good enough to me. However, not everyone is good with putting text-to-rock. A veteran climber from my area once rightfully referred to that skill as a black art, acknowledging not all have it.

Rather than adding directional bolts,  a compromise for Snake Dike might include a dedicated MP sub-section or linked MP page with step by step photos annotated with the direction to go where ever it may not be obvious.

I say “compromise” because some really want just the minimum route-finding detail in general. That’s me. I am personally becoming annoyed with the number of marked photos - and tracks for navigating the approach / deproach trails! - on MP. But I’d choose that for Snake Dike over navigation bolts if those two were the top choices.

Even after writing all that, I do wonder about increasing access to climbers with one year of experience based on a single terrible accident.

Bill Lawry wrote:

I agree - you raise a good point.

Just reread MP’s text description. It seems good enough to me. However, not everyone is good with putting text-to-rock. A veteran climber from my area once rightfully referred to that skill as a black art, acknowledging not all have it.

Rather than adding directional bolts,  a compromise for Snake Dike might include a dedicated MP sub-section or linked MP page with step by step photos annotated with the direction to go where ever it may not be obvious.

I say “compromise” because some really want just the minimum route-finding detail in general. That’s me. I am personally becoming annoyed with the number of marked photos - and tracks for navigating the approach / deproach trails! - on MP. But I’d choose that for Snake Dike over navigation bolts if those two were the top choices.

Even after writing all that, I do wonder about increasing access to climbers with one year of experience based on a single terrible accident.

That's a great point. 100%, more bolts will equal more accidents YOSAR might as well relocate up there! Can you Imagine when the Insta Kids realise they don't have to go up the cables to access Half Dome .

NateB wrote:

This argument has been presented many times and I have to wonder how much slab climbing the people presenting it have actually done.  Getting lost trying to find the next bolt is a significant part of the game.  The more bolts there are, the easier it is to find your way.

That said, in this case, there is a mess of dikes and bolts for other routes where she got lost.  She cited a confusing topo that didn't map it all out for her.  MP has some good diagrams and comments, but they're sort of buried.  Maybe what's needed most is to push this stuff up to one of the first photos on the page.  

An extra bolt might not help as it could still be confused with others.  A plaque or diagram on a plate on a bolt would likely be lacking in needed detail.

The climber who you’re referencing had about a years worth of experience. A year. THAT is the major contributing factor to her unfortunate accident. If even just 200 people a year have climbed snake dike since its inception, that’s 10,000 climbers, none of whom needed more bolts in order to climb the route or follow where it goes.

The route is 5.7, the difficulty was psychological, and that psychological challenge is the route. Bolting it away doesn't make the climb safer in any meaningful sense for competent trad climbers; it just removes the defining challenge.

There are a lot of reasons that people do rock climbs. One is the challenge of gymnastic moves, another might be the technical aspects of gear and ropes, some might enjoy it as exercise in the outdoors and there's the feeling of accomplishment when you done something difficult. Snake Dike was a mental challenge for the leader, the climbing is easy but you had to get your head around the exposure to runouts. The long hike combined with the climb was a physical challenge but dealing with the sense of risk was the biggest challenge.

If a climb is too difficult for your physical or mental ability, simply go climb something else but don't sully an existing route.

Bringing an existing climb down to your level is pure weak sauce.

I doubt Sloan needed to bring this route down to his level and I really don't know what his motivation was.

Ricky Harline wrote:

You are getting a selection bias here. The Facebook groups where this same debate is happening it's very much the anti-retrobolters that are outnumbered there.

I don't think MP is very representative of all of climbing, but I do think it represents what is sometimes called "the core climbing scene" better than the FB groups. 

Totally, just reporting what's here.

NateB wrote:

……….Getting lost trying to find the next bolt is a significant part of the game.  The more bolts there are, the easier it is to find your way.

That said, in this case, there is a mess of dikes and bolts for other routes where she got lost.  She cited a confusing topo that didn't map it all out for her.  MP has some good diagrams and comments, but they're sort of buried.  Maybe what's needed most is to push this stuff up to one of the first photos on the page.  

An extra bolt might not help as it could still be confused with others.  A plaque or diagram on a plate on a bolt would likely be lacking in needed detail.

I would say NOT getting lost is part of the game.

This is a significant skill that is in short supply. And it’s just one. Another is the mental and physical skills to deal with how and when to correct errors. These are exactly why some people advocate for dumbing down routes. Another reason is THEIR sense of ownership, under the guise of “community service”

Those who want to add more bolts, go ahead and blame the boomers. It is largely our fault. We created the information you incessantly crave. We also created all the avenues by which you collect it.

However, the confusion caused by an excess of bolts is not on us. 

Patrick O'Hare wrote:

Totally, just reporting what's here.

To the post you were referring to: by my tally, it is the pro retro-bolt group that is outnumbered on FB.

Couldn't we just pair up Sloan with Shawn Snyder? In the other thread someone said Sloan lived in a shack with a roommate. Couldn't that be Shawn? So you'd have one douche bag retro-bolting classic climbs, and another douche following him around chopping them. 

P.S. the silver lining in all of this is the younger/newer climbers that get exposed to these ideas/arguments, and the majority of them end up coming down on the side of the established ethics. When I was new climber and first learned about retro anchors getting chopped on a classic one pitch climb I wanted to top rope I didn't get it. I thought it was gate keeping. But then a more experienced climber explained it to me (I'm old enough that this was pre-internet haha) and I had enough of an open mind to listen and realize why it's lame in most cases to retrobolt.  

Li Lin wrote:

I strongly support Erik Sloan’s bolting efforts on Snake Dike.

The argument that “runout and mental pressure are part of the route” should not be used to force unnecessary risk onto everyone else. Your extraordinary experience should not require sacrificing other climbers’ safety. That is like forcing your religious doctrine onto people who do not share your faith.

If you want the original runout experience, you are completely free to skip any bolt you want. Nobody is taking that choice away from you. But removing or opposing protection that could prevent serious injury or death takes that choice away from others.

More bolts give climbers options. They do not force anyone to clip them.

"I hate all the patriarchy too that gate keeps art and demands I spend years of hard work training my craft and denying me my rightful space in the Louvre as is my birthright. It's a new era and I should be allowed to permanently update a great work to suit my taste and limited abilities."

Doing an FA is Art (really performance art written in stone). The Certified Masterpieces with thousands of ascents do not get retrobolted because new climbers say they want it now.

Go do your own art. Do not demand that a masterpiece be made yours and that you shouldn't have to work for it. We are advocating for you and others to have the opportunity to have your own masterful performance on Snake Dike. I promise you will remember that memorable day all your life.

I will never get to all the quality routes I want to put up. I am not gatekeeping my finds; I just am not willing to give you the keys to a goldmine with no effort on your part. You will benefit greatly from finding your own new routes to do (awesome exploratory hikes with the occasional bushwack lol) and you get to bolt them however you like. No pain, no gain.

Any pics yet or has Woot Woot! pulled a majorly massive troll?

M M wrote:

Any pics yet or has Woot Woot! pulled a majorly massive troll?

Yes, the post that started it all features a photo