Half Dome's Snake Dike is being retrobolted - get involved!

dave hill wrote:

Erik Sloan is like the Donald Trump of valley climbers.

Regrettably, no; there is no term limit.

The best thing they could do for safety is to add a small little 'plaque', like they have on Dream of Wild Turkeys at Red Rocks, at the bolt where you need to head left to stay on the Snake Dike route...

Nick Lozica wrote:

Who cares if there are more bolts?  More bolts will help people move more quickly on the route because they will not be up there Elvis legging. At the end of the day climbing is a personal experience, if you want to have the same/ similar experience of the first ascensionist, only clip the old bolts. There is already a precedent set for this on routes like hair raiser buttress. On that route you can clip the original bolts and get your kicks in that way or you could climb the route and clip all of the bolts. If your ego solely rests on the fact that you didn't fall on a 5.7 that you climbed 10+ years ago, look inward. 

Nick I can guarantee you more bolts will not lead to people climbing faster.

new yosemitesam wrote:

Nick I can guarantee you more bolts will not lead to people climbing faster.

When we were on it a few years ago, we had considered bringing progress capture devices to simul-climb the easier parts.  We didn't, and it would not have mattered anyway.  We'd have just ran up against the party in front of us.  I know this is anecdotal - just one day - but there were parties on the route long before we got to the base of it and long after.

Nick Lozica wrote:

There is already a precedent set for this on routes like hair raiser buttress. On that route you can clip the original bolts and get your kicks in that way or you could climb the route and clip all of the bolts. If your ego solely rests on the fact that you didn't fall on a 5.7 that you climbed 10+ years ago, look inward. 

Is Hair Raiser really a "precedent" you want replicated? Just clip bolts 1, 3, and, 5, oh and also ignore the bolt ladder that crosses the route... Really? A climbing future where everything is a Kilter Board and you download an app that tells you which bolts to clip to send the "Steve Roper version" of Snake Dike?

Nick Lozica wrote:

Who cares if there are more bolts?  More bolts will help people move more quickly on the route because they will not be up there Elvis legging. At the end of the day climbing is a personal experience, if you want to have the same/ similar experience of the first ascensionist, only clip the old bolts. There is already a precedent set for this on routes like hair raiser buttress. On that route you can clip the original bolts and get your kicks in that way or you could climb the route and clip all of the bolts. If your ego solely rests on the fact that you didn't fall on a 5.7 that you climbed 10+ years ago, look inward. 

If your ego rest solely on your inability to climb runout 5.7 friction slab and 5.4 low angle knobs that was put up 60 years ago in hiking boots look inward.   

I have bolted (over bolted to some) new routes for newbies from the gym (or from anywhere for that matter). I do think they need routes for their ability/experience level rather than a trial by fire.

But Snake Dike is a historic route that should not be dumbed down for the masses. Old historic routes should not be retro bolted, ever, unless they see no traffic due to a runout nature and ideally with the FA's consent, imo. Snake Dike is plenty crowded in season. It doesn't need more traffic and more bolts will bring that and make it go even slower.

As well, we have a duty to "protect and preserve" the Climbing History of Yosemite, imo.

George Anderson did the first ascent of Half Dome in 1875 up what is now been converted to a Via Ferratta (The Cable Route). That is available to any and everyone with reasonable fitness unless they can't overcome their fears. Should we put up a Telepherique from the Valley Floor to the summit of Half Dome for them? The same logic holds for adding bolts to Snake Dike. Then summiting Half Dome would only take $$$ and a blindfold for the exposure. 

By my count, the anti-retrobolt folks outnumber the pro-retrobolt crowd 7:1.

Is this a fucking joke

Nick Lozica wrote:

The deed is already done, the bolts are in. What I'm proposing is not chopping the bolts which will further damage the rock. Yosemite is already a chipped and manufactured crag, that's full of semi permanent litter left on the walls by climbers. It's not an adventure climbing area it's just another crag. Comparing a few bolts, that are optional to clip once they are there, to a telepherique is a bit of a stretch.

So all of yosemite is just a chipped and manufactured crag, but the most important things in your mind is that we don't damage the rock, or cause a climber to get elvis leg?

Nick Lozica wrote:

The deed is already done, the bolts are in. What I'm proposing is not chopping the bolts which will further damage the rock. Yosemite is already a chipped and manufactured crag, that's full of semi permanent litter left on the walls by climbers. It's not an adventure climbing area it's just another crag. Comparing a few bolts, that are optional to clip once they are there, to a telepherique is a bit of a stretch.

To argue that a row of retro bolts is fine because they are simply optional to clip is peak delusion. You can’t just opt out of reality. The mere existence of a shiny metal safety net completely vaporizes the psychological crux of the route. Snake Dike’s legendary status isn't about physical difficulty, it’s about looking down at a 30ft runout and knowing you actually have to keep your composure to survive. The second you pepper that runout with unsanctioned bolts, you turn a high stakes psychological masterpiece into a sanitized sidewalk. It doesn’t matter if you skip clipping them. The mental commitment is gone because you are no longer managing real risk, you’re just roleplaying it. It’s not hard to understand the absurdity of your logic. 

Nick Lozica wrote:

Yosemite is already a chipped and manufactured crag, that's full of semi permanent litter left on the walls by climbers. It's not an adventure climbing area it's just another crag. Comparing a few bolts, that are optional to clip once they are there, to a telepherique is a bit of a stretch.

Literally what the hell are you talking about man 

Nick Lozica wrote:

The deed is already done, the bolts are in. What I'm proposing is not chopping the bolts which will further damage the rock. Yosemite is already a chipped and manufactured crag, that's full of semi permanent litter left on the walls by climbers. It's not an adventure climbing area it's just another crag. Comparing a few bolts, that are optional to clip once they are there, to a telepherique is a bit of a stretch.

I don't think you have the experience to know what you are talking about. A professional pulling of bolts can lead to a virtually invisible result.

Literally, despite your best efforts you often cannot find the original hole.

I was going to bring up the "you don't have to use chipped holds either" and "you don't have to look at the graffiti" extension, but it looks like Nick might actually be okay with that too. "You don't have to clip it" is one of the worst arguments that just needs to die. Even if I thought a route should be retrobolted, I would never use that horrible argument. 

This was my second multi-pitch climb ever. I was scared to death and immediately wondered why more bolts weren’t present to prevent catastrophic injury, and after what happened to Anna Parsons, I can absolutely understand why more bolts are being added. However, after trad climbing for about a decade now, I worry that adding more bolts will make this route appear easier and more accessible to the new leader (like I was) and attract even more traffic from less-experienced climbers. Even with a few more bolts this route is still a pretty big commitment, and my feeling is that it will lead to even more (albeit less severe) injuries and rescues (like epinephrine at RR). I feel like just changing the rating on mountain project (not the guidebook) to 5.8 R/X would decrease injuries and rescues 🤷 hopefully I am wrong.

Nick Lozica wrote:

The deed is already done, the bolts are in. What I'm proposing is not chopping the bolts which will further damage the rock. Yosemite is already a chipped and manufactured crag, that's full of semi permanent litter left on the walls by climbers. It's not an adventure climbing area it's just another crag. Comparing a few bolts, that are optional to clip once they are there, to a telepherique is a bit of a stretch.

No dude, it's not. It's a logical extension of your position.

Snake Dike exists for technical rock climbers with a modicum of sack. It IS an adventure.

The Cable Route exists for those who are not technical rock climbers and have minimal sack even though it was done solo in 1875. It's a lifetime adventure for some.

Who is to say that those without enough fitness to hike 15 miles round trip should be denied the summit?

It's clearly elitist and unfair and those darn cable hikers are letting their egos result in gate keeping preventing millions of visitors the experience of the summit.

If access is the goal then the sky is the limit unless we use restraint. The summit of Half Dome is a super cool place and thousands would ride a tram up there if they could.

I also guarantee 100% that Sloan used a bolt gun to drill as he is notorious for that. I mention that because enforcing hand drilling helps ensure that people truly place bolts where they believe they are necessary and think twice before they do place them, imo. I doubt he spent the necessary hours to hand drill anything.

Peter DeLuca wrote:

.... I feel like just changing the rating on mountain project (not the guidebook) to 5.8 R/X would decrease injuries and rescues 🤷 hopefully I am wrong.

That's not a bad idea. I suspect that is what the original 5.10a rating was intended to accomplish on My Favorite Things, if I remember correctly.  However, I see the consensus today on MFT has brought the MP rating solidly down to 5.9 which I think is appropriate.

In short, it appears there isn't a way on MP to fix the Snake Dike rating at 5.8 unless MP does something special/new (for all us free loaders).

Edit (not to you, Peter):  "Yosemite is ... just another crag" - seriously?!?! 

Patrick O'Hare wrote:

By my count, the anti-retrobolt folks outnumber the pro-retrobolt crowd 7:1.

You are getting a selection bias here. The Facebook groups where this same debate is happening it's very much the anti-retrobolters that are outnumbered there.

I don't think MP is very representative of all of climbing, but I do think it represents what is sometimes called "the core climbing scene" better than the FB groups. 

Aren’t there already enough well protected beginner climbs in the valley? I don’t see why this route should need more than 4-5 bolts max. 

John Tuttle wrote:

Should we put up a Telepherique from the Valley Floor to the summit of Half Dome for them?

This was a serious proposal at some time in the mid/late 80's

No.  Not a single bolt needs to be added to this route.