Half Dome's Snake Dike is being retrobolted - get involved!

Ricky Harline wrote:

You are getting a selection bias here. The Facebook groups where this same debate is happening it's very much the anti-retrobolters that are outnumbered there.

I don't think MP is very representative of all of climbing, but I do think it represents what is sometimes called "the core climbing scene" better than the FB groups. 

Patrick's ratio (7:1) seems high on MP's anti-retrobolt folks, but that is just intuition on my part.  

I was curious about FB and went through the top-level comments on FB's Climbing Magazine's ' "Add Some More Bolts" Says Snake Dike First Ascensionist '.  My tally, admittedly involves some interpretation:

46 anti-retrobolt

27 retrobolt

What a self aggrandizing, wanna be, desperate POS Sloan is.   

I wonder how many of the pro-retrobolt people have actually climbed the route?  IMO you don't get a vote if you haven't actually climbed the route.  Because how can you make an informed opinion about a route if you haven't actually climbed it?  It is a really easy route that almost anybody can do if they practice on other Valley slab climbs of equal or slightly harder grade.  

When I recently climbed this route in a party of three, one climber in our group was adamant about not leading anything because he was scared of the run-outs.  I understood his position because he grew up as a sport climber and usually has me lead anything remotely scary anyway.  So I told him I would lead all of Snake Dike, no problem.  Well, at the top of the 3rd pitch belay he decided that he wanted to lead pitch 4.  And so he did.  And he was stoked for overcoming his fear and doing it. And then he led pitch 6 and 8!

So for those folks who want more bolts on Snake Dike, sorry, that isn't going to happen.  But the upside is the route awaits to gift you the joy of discovery, the same joy that 20,000 others have experienced before you- it will bring a smile to your face when you glide up the dike... hand holds, foot holds, sun, wind, sky, beauty.  If you are apprehensive, like my sport climbing buddy, just go with someone who is willing to lead the whole thing.  Then maybe lead a pitch or three when you feel ready.  And you will feel ready.  

Retrobolting is bad for the following reasons:

• Hurt feelings: No one will care about old wizards and their talk about scary pre-retrobolt sends on a 5.7
• Fewer injuries: YOSAR won't be able to pick up bodies off this beginner route anymore (lame)
• Gatekeeping: only people who can afford lots of expensive cams should be able to climb in yosemite.
• Boomers: the route was sent by boomers, so they own the rock (like everything else), and they say no. We have to listen to our elders. They know what's good for us
• Totems: tweakers who talk about the perfect slot for their .5 cam will have no one listening to them (sad)

Bruh... Not one of your points has ANY connection with anything that's going on here.

Sloan...when your ethics are so shitty they name a toilet after you...

Yeah, Sloan is so lame for not following the arbitrary rules of old people (they made the world better for us). Be a good boy Sloan. Follow the rules! Moar AI photos!

I strongly support Erik Sloan’s bolting efforts on Snake Dike.

The argument that “runout and mental pressure are part of the route” should not be used to force unnecessary risk onto everyone else. Your extraordinary experience should not require sacrificing other climbers’ safety. That is like forcing your religious doctrine onto people who do not share your faith.

If you want the original runout experience, you are completely free to skip any bolt you want. Nobody is taking that choice away from you. But removing or opposing protection that could prevent serious injury or death takes that choice away from others.

More bolts give climbers options. They do not force anyone to clip them.

No one is forced to climb any climb. You can be as mild as you wish because there are other routes.

If safety and less pressure on YOSAR is a goal then taking down the cables is the key. Significant numbers of deaths and rescues have occurred on the easier route.

Adam Byra wrote:

Retrobolting is bad for the following reasons:

• Hurt feelings: No one will care about old wizards and their talk about scary pre-retrobolt sends on a 5.7
• Fewer injuries: YOSAR won't be able to pick up bodies off this beginner route anymore (lame)
• Gatekeeping: only people who can afford lots of expensive cams should be able to climb in yosemite.
• Boomers: the route was sent by boomers, so they own the rock (like everything else), and they say no. We have to listen to our elders. They know what's good for us
• Totems: tweakers who talk about the perfect slot for their .5 cam will have no one listening to them (sad)

Can you name a single "body" recovered from the base of Snake Dike? And your advocating for bolting Yosemite cracks so you don't have to own a rack? Am I reading that right?

If someone had added only 5 more bolts total to the entire route, and not posted on MP, this would be an entirely different conversation. Sigh…

Are there any photos? 

There's a photo in the other thread. Of a buttonhead installed by Erik.  Presumably buttonheads so a yabr can't pull them? Correct me if that's incorrect.

Only someone who doesn't give a shit about the grandeur of this stone would install bolts that couldn't be pulled on a route they knew the community would immediately rid of the additions. He gets to lie to himself and believe it's someone else who desecrated the stone. All of this is just as weak as it gets. What a small man.

Tanner James wrote:

Can you name a single "body" recovered from the base of Snake Dike? And your advocating for bolting Yosemite cracks so you don't have to own a rack? Am I reading that right?

No, I'm saying the opposite. There are already too many people climbing in Yosemite, adding bolts would make it way more crowded/safe/convenient for others. As a fellow boomer, I want to limit access and convenience for people that come after me, and like all other boomers I feel that I own the place (because I was there first (obviously the natives don't count)), and I'm afraid of change in general.

Adam Byra = Sloan clone

Adam Byra wrote:

No, I'm saying the opposite. There are already too many people climbing in Yosemite, adding bolts would make it way more crowded/safe/convenient for others. As a fellow boomer, I want to limit access and convenience for people that come after me, and like all other boomers I feel that I own the place (because I was there first (obviously the natives don't count)), and I'm afraid of change in general.

Again - Are your advocating for bolting Yosemite cracks so you don't have to own a rack? Am I reading that right?

Adam Byra wrote:

Retrobolting is bad for the following reasons:

• Hurt feelings: No one will care about old wizards and their talk about scary pre-retrobolt sends on a 5.7
• Fewer injuries: YOSAR won't be able to pick up bodies off this beginner route anymore (lame)
• Gatekeeping: only people who can afford lots of expensive cams should be able to climb in yosemite.
• Boomers: the route was sent by boomers, so they own the rock (like everything else), and they say no. We have to listen to our elders. They know what's good for us
• Totems: tweakers who talk about the perfect slot for their .5 cam will have no one listening to them (sad)

Even Chat GBT can’t write a coherent argument to fortify your opinion. Clearly! 

Adam Byra wrote:

Retrobolting is bad for the following reasons:

• Hurt feelings: No one will care about old wizards and their talk about scary pre-retrobolt sends on a 5.7
• Fewer injuries: YOSAR won't be able to pick up bodies off this beginner route anymore (lame)
• Gatekeeping: only people who can afford lots of expensive cams should be able to climb in yosemite.
• Boomers: the route was sent by boomers, so they own the rock (like everything else), and they say no. We have to listen to our elders. They know what's good for us
• Totems: tweakers who talk about the perfect slot for their .5 cam will have no one listening to them (sad)

Fewer injuries? You can name only one major accident on snake dike, where a climber with ONE year of experience got off route. Compare that with what, 20,000 people who have climbed the route in the last fifty years? (That’s only 400 people a year, might even be a low estimate).

Gatekeeping? If the run outs are what make it dangerous.. why would you need a lot of expensive cams then? These two points literally cancel each other out. 

The reasons given to support retrobolting it are bullshit and have been shot down a thousand times in previous threads/discussions. It's only the noobs who think they came up with a new idea, and the experienced people sticking their fingers in their ears, who don't see why retro bolting is usually a shitty idea.

It's not about gatekeeping. It's about having respect for future climbers and allowing them to face the challenge (mental and physical) that makes a route special.

It's not a sport route. There are 75' runouts. If you add 16 bolts (2 more per pitch) there's still 38' runouts. And as mentioned the serious injuries happened when people got off route, those 16 bolts wouldn't have done any good anyway, all they would do is rob people of the thrilling experience of climbing an easy dike for 75' .

Every generation has it's shortfalls. How about the generation that loves something sooooo much that they have to invite all their fake insta-friends and blast it out all over social media until it gets too crowded and trashy and then they don't like it anymore and move to the next destructive project? Is the opposite of gatekeeping... ruining?

Li Lin wrote:

I strongly support Erik Sloan’s bolting efforts on Snake Dike.

The argument that “runout and mental pressure are part of the route” should not be used to force unnecessary risk onto everyone else. Your extraordinary experience should not require sacrificing other climbers’ safety. That is like forcing your religious doctrine onto people who do not share your faith.

If you want the original runout experience, you are completely free to skip any bolt you want. Nobody is taking that choice away from you. But removing or opposing protection that could prevent serious injury or death takes that choice away from others.

More bolts give climbers options. They do not force anyone to clip them.

No one is “forcing unnecessary risk” on anyone. No one is forcing anyone to climb this route. I personally held off climbing it until I knew I was good and ready, and it was an amazing experience.

This idea of ‘just don’t clip the bolts’ has been debunked many times before. Psychologically, it would not be the same to lead such a climb because you will always know you have a safe escape, an “out”, if you get scared. It is important that the bolts not even be there in order to get the full meal deal.

Imagine sport bolting the Bachar-Yerian and telling folks… “aw, just skip all those new bolts and it’ll be the same thing”. I am never going to climb the BY and I am perfectly fine with that. At my age and ability, there are many tens of thousands (millions?) of routes I’ll never climb because they are too hard or I deem them too scary and dangerous—I’m perfectly fine with that. I’ll stick to routes that fit my current physical and mental capabilities rather than asking someone to bring the route down to my level. 

Leave the classics as classics for those who have the time, patience, and work ethic to build up to them.