Half Dome has fallen.

Mark Starrwrote:

One thing is for sure, the childish temper tantrums will cause the adults to step in and regulate the children because they cannot self-regulate. The angrier we get the more likely it is that we lose privileges we didn't even know we had.

As someone who was part of the start of the Access Fund I can assure you that the above is proven fact. I have dealt with it first hand. The adults are the land managers. Right now they have much greater issues. As such, they can and will issue edicts that no one will be happy with.

Through experience with the Access Fund via a local organization, they are actually not very supportive of the wilderness experience many of us seek.

In this case, the land managers would be more likely to align with the Yosemite Climbing Association. Perhaps they [our woefully funded land managers] should be called in to stop this bolt war that is happening now.

“Once a bolt is placed, the nature of the experience is changed, and other climbers may no longer have the opportunity to attempt the route without it. Let’s take care to keep these walls and domes as close to their natural condition as possible so that future generations can experience the essence of Wilderness climbing.”

… and …

“Local ethics include accepting established routes as they are, not adding new bolts, ….”

source: https://www.yosemiteclimbing.org/education-ethics

If one isn’t buying the importance of preserving these required runouts that matter to many of us, note that Snake Dike was crowded enough before this abomination began.

It’l be at least a year before I will be there again. I’ll contribute funds if needed to anyone willing to reverse this lop-sided decision that goes beyond what Beck ever requested.   Given Erik’s decision making process so far about adding bolts (i.e., solo), I don’t care whether the added bolts are simply wrecked or completely removed.

Josh Janeswrote:

This is a glimpse of a horrific dystopian future - the likes of which, when carried through to it's natural conclusion, has been written about by countless SciFi authors like Huxley, Rand, Orwell, even Suzanne Collins for the Classically Illiterate Gen Z's out there. I read this and threw up in my mouth a little: Collectivism... blech!

While there are many things I love about the "current climbing community", ceding all authority in these matters to it would be tragic. Long live the creatives, the colorful, the misfits, and the rebels; fuck you whomever is retrobolting Snake Dike; and may the bolts be swiftly chopped and name never redacted.

;-)

Dan Booklesswrote:

You know how certain idiots believe that, like, the 2nd amendment is, like, God's spoken law...well, I think a lot of climbers also suffer from a similar derangement surrounding the supposed "authority" of a FA's:  "god says that the first swinging dick to bolt the rock has dominion for eternity!"    It's all just a construct, and frankly, I think a more logical construct is one where the community owns the rocks and the community can do whatever the eff they want to the rocks with absolutely zero concern for whoever the eff happened to climb the route first.  Suffice to say, this conversation around adding bolts to snake dike does not need to consult with the FAs, they have zero authority; the current climbing community is the authority.  

I disagree that historical development and tradition can be reduced to a "construct," the consequences of which, may lead (and often does) to outcomes that are not anticipated. The aim is to conserve past accomplishments and not to render them to the lowest common denominator that you appear to advocate for.

Bill Lawrywrote:

 I don’t care whether the added bolts are simply wrecked or completely removed.

That's a pretty sad statement after everything else you said seems to imply that you care about the condition of wilderness. At least advocate for proper removal and patching, rather than wanton destruction of hardware and rock.

Josh Janeswrote:

This is a glimpse of a horrific dystopian future - the likes of which, when carried through to it's natural conclusion, has been written about by countless SciFi authors like Huxley, Rand, Orwell, even Suzanne Collins for the Classically Illiterate Gen Z's out there. I read this and threw up in my mouth a little: Collectivism... blech!

While there are many things I love about the "current climbing community", ceding all authority in these matters to it would be tragic. Long live the creatives, the colorful, the misfits, and the rebels; fuck you whomever is retrobolting Snake Dike; and may the bolts be swiftly chopped and name never redacted.

A literary description of the retro-bolt supporters can be found in Thus Spoke Zarathustra. Nietzsche predicted the age we are living through in 1882. 

Mark Starrwrote:

That's a pretty sad statement after everything else you said seems to imply that you care about the condition of wilderness. At least advocate for proper removal and patching, rather than wanton destruction of hardware and rock.

I will, Mark, when the bolter (Erik) truly and thoughtfully engages the community and wilderness ethics. Clearly, his past actions indicate something more is needed than “removal and patch.” Until he does, I stand by my comment.

Colin Rowewrote:

I disagree that historical development and tradition can be reduced to a "construct," the consequences of which, may lead (and often does) to outcomes that are not anticipated. The aim is to conserve past accomplishments and not to render them to the lowest common denominator that you appear to advocate for.

• In addition. There is no one singular or homogenous "community". For example climbing (Yosemite climbing in particular) sport, bouldering and Alpinism. 

Colin Rowewrote:

• In addition. There is no one singular or homogenous "community". For example climbing (Yosemite climbing in particular) sport, bouldering and Alpinism. 

Even the ASCA recognizes your point and so instead encourages “general” consensus, which they also state “is essential.”

Edit: post-limited out for the day

Colin Rowewrote:

• In addition. There is no one singular or homogenous "community". For example climbing (Yosemite climbing in particular) sport, bouldering and Alpinism. 

It’s much like the strange but often parroted assumption that all humans want the same things. As I wrote earlier, if comfort seeking climbers want a closely bolted line up Half Dome, they are free to find and equip such a route. If a section is too difficult they can simply A0 through it and safely continue. They like to claim the run-outs are all about ego, so a bit of A0 shouldn’t be too much for their ego to absorb. 

Or they could simply climb up the cables and accept their limitations as a climber. 

Colin Rowewrote:

• In addition. There is no one singular or homogenous "community". For example climbing (Yosemite climbing in particular) sport, bouldering and Alpinism. 

I was curious Dan Bookless. In your very impressive tick list I counted 7 Yosemite routes all of which are impressive. Perhaps with more skin in the game (Yosemite) and perhaps an ascent of Snake Dike may alter your prescription (I appreciate you may not have listed all your Yosemite routes and this obviously does not invalidate (perhaps ill-considered) your opinion. Happy trails.

Bill Lawrywrote:

I will, Mark, when the bolter (Erik) truly and thoughtfully engages the community and wilderness ethics. Clearly, his past actions indicate something more is needed than “removal and patch.” Until he does, I stand by my comment.

You're going with the see-a-nazi-punch-a-nazi logic and I get it, it's a forceful way to set precedent and it has its place. I just think all the extremes one way or another are damaging when really we're just talking about bits of metal in rock. How many hundreds of thousands of words will be wasted on this and how many relationships damaged? And for what, really? My only hope is for personal growth towards empathy and love among my fellow residents of earth that will bring us closer to the world I think we all want. Discussions like this can help people grow if they let it. We need to deeply feel our emotions, dive into them and investigate them. Sad to see many don't think this way. I know, perhaps the hippie here should just quiet down — and maybe that's my lesson to learn. I'm working on it.

Perhaps the middle way would be something closer to your original suggestion of taking the hangers and damaging the threads. That way people can bring some wires to put on the bolts sticking out if they want. Or something like they do in Australia with carrot bolts.

Colin Rowewrote:

I was curious Dan Bookless. In your very impressive tick list I counted 7 Yosemite routes all of which are impressive. Perhaps with more skin in the game (Yosemite) and perhaps an ascent of Snake Dike may alter your prescription (I appreciate you may not have listed all your Yosemite routes and this obviously does not invalidate (perhaps ill-considered) your opinion. Happy trails.

I did Snake Dike in 2014 or 2015.  I'm not a part of Yosemite climbing community by any means; but I think this conversation about Snake Dike is really just a proxy for a larger conversation about climbing ethics.

Colin Rowewrote:

I was curious Dan Bookless. In your very impressive tick list I counted 7 Yosemite routes all of which are impressive. Perhaps with more skin in the game (Yosemite) and perhaps an ascent of Snake Dike may alter your prescription (I appreciate you may not have listed all your Yosemite routes and this obviously does not invalidate (perhaps ill-considered) your opinion. Happy trails.

People need to understand that many users do not use the MP tick feature as it was intended.  I have been climbing in Yosemite for 26 years, have climbed El Cap 7 times, as well as most of the classics.  I don't know that I have a single Yosemite route on my tick list.  Even by 2002 when I started MP, the idea of logging 8 years of climbs was way over the top.

By my current count, the anti-retro bolt folks outnumbers the pro retro-bolt crowd about 3:1.

Mark Starrwrote:

You're going with the see-a-nazi-punch-a-nazi logic and I get it, it's a forceful way to set precedent and it has its place. I just think all the extremes one way or another are damaging when really we're just talking about bits of metal in rock. How many hundreds of thousands of words will be wasted on this and how many relationships damaged? And for what, really? My only hope is for personal growth towards empathy and love among my fellow residents of earth that will bring us closer to the world I think we all want. Discussions like this can help people grow if they let it. We need to deeply feel our emotions, dive into them and investigate them. Sad to see many don't think this way. I know, perhaps the hippie here should just quiet down — and maybe that's my lesson to learn. I'm working on it.

Perhaps the middle way would be something closer to your original suggestion of taking the hangers and damaging the threads. That way people can bring some wires to put on the bolts sticking out if they want. Or something like they do in Australia with carrot bolts.

Where is the empathy for climbers like Nkane and all of the climbers who share his vision? I know when I engage in certain types of climbing, I deeply feel all of my emotions. This is what keeps me climbing. Is your idea of empathy to alter a 61 year old climb that has had maybe 20,000 ascents so people who are afraid to confront their emotions can feel better?  How does a climber confront fear when only comfort exists? 

The middle path as a climber is to acknowledge strengths and weaknesses without malice or a sense of entitlement and choose climbs that bring out the best in each of us. 

Hiding from fear and destroying routes that elicit fear is in no way a middle path, it is a rejection of the opportunity for growth. 

Ps. I’ll second what Kevin wrote about tick lists. I’m not interested in listing the climbs I’ve completed in Yosemite, but rest assured that I’ve climbed enough to have an opinion and a deep love for its storied walls. 

Meh. The vast majority of the people full of emotions and reactions about this won’t get out of their computer chair to do something. You’re spending hours and hours typing replies and convincing yourself you are contributing to some imaginary outcome that this thread will create.

There’s a snake dike thread every year or so, it seems. No one who said they wanted bolts went up there and did it. And now that Erik Sloan has done it to seek attention for himself, the other side who doesn’t want bolts will get exposed as too lazy to go chop them (with the exception of maybe Tanner who is likely actually motivated enough.) 

Get off my lawn. 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Where is the empathy for climbers like Nkane and all of the climbers who share his vision? I know when I engage in certain types of climbing, I deeply feel all of my emotions. This is what keeps me climbing. Is your idea of empathy to alter a 61 year old climb that has had maybe 20,000 ascents so people who are afraid to confront their emotions can feel better?  How does a climber confront fear when only comfort exists? 

The middle path as a climber is to acknowledge strengths and weaknesses without malice or a sense of entitlement and choose climbs that bring out the best in each of us. 

Hiding from fear and destroying routes that elicit fear is in no way a middle path, it is a rejection of the opportunity for growth. 

Ps. I’ll second what Kevin wrote about tick lists. I’m not interested in listing the climbs I’ve completed in Yosemite, but rest assured that I’ve climbed enough to have an opinion and a deep love for its storied walls. 

From all my comments it's pretty clear that my opinion on this route is not clearly stated. Go back and read my comment on the first page — the one comment that is the most heavily "liked" in this thread that's not a joke, if it's a data point worth anything (it's not, but it's nice to see that people acknowledge the validity of what I had to say).

Read my second long-ass comment for how I view dangerous routes and retro bolting routes that may be aimed towards less strong climbers. 

I consciously refuse to take a hard stance one way or another because being attached to either is damaging. I do believe that I've shown empathy to both schools of thought and still think a better middle way can be settled on if people would confront their egos in quiet contemplation. I value people and relationships over hardware and rock. Interpret that as you wish, but that doesn't mean I'm pro or anti bolts in this instance or any other. 

Peace and love y'all. I'm out for the day.   

We are going next week. 

As others have said, climbing Snake Dike was one of the mile stones in my climbing career. I've climbed at least a thousand perfectly enjoyable 5.7 routes and I couldn't tell you a thing about the vast majority of them or even their names. Only a handful actually stood out enough to be memorable and I sure as shit remember Snake Dike. Every belay I reached was like the sweetest nectar and our joy skyrocketed as we approached the safety of the upper pitches. The satisfaction of rising to a challenge like this and succeeding can't be overstated, especially one that puts your life on the line. Snake Dike, with its run outs, is on the list of 50 Classics for a reason. The runouts are what elevate this, otherwise perfectly enjoyable climb, to a classic status.

To the folk that aren't comfortable climbing Snake Dike in its traditional form, that's fine, don't do it. There's many lifetimes worth of virgin rock to put up as many mediocre bolted climbs as you want without stepping on any toes. And tons of already existing ones to choose from! Voila! We can all be happy!