New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #42

Norm Larsonwrote:

Guy I think the idea of retro bolting J Tree is an April fool’s prank.

No it is not. Wrong day for one. And Lori made the same argument for retrobolting a few years back.

Spot on, Brad.

3 ascents in 50 years? You'll be a spot on the ground if that goes wrong. But like I said, it is a nuanced discussion. Messner scorned all bolts, Bachar was the first person I knew of to use a power drill. The debates we had about Snake Dike, Ship Rock etc. 

Brad Youngwrote:

Daniel Shivelywrote:

It's both.

I can give two examples of why tradition matters and why it involves both:

-  the "worship of ashes" - which I presume means admiring those who came before/those who made the routes in question, and also;

-  the "preservation of fire."

There could be literally hundreds of examples, but just two.

First, regarding a famous climb, The Bachar-Yerian in Tuolumne Meadows. Rated 5.11c X.

It's famous. Why? Not because it's a great quality 5.11 face climb. It's famous because its a great quality 5.11 face climb AND for  its incredibly bold history AND for the extreme courage/boldness and just "go" that one must have to lead it (I've never been on it). All of this in the very best traditions of our sport.

All of this would disappear - just evaporate - if The Bachar-Yerian was retro-bolted. Not every climb needs to be accessible to every climber.

Second, here's a photo of a similar situation, but regarding a route which is unknown other than to a small niche of climbers.

The two climbers are on a route called Daedalus. It's on Machete Ridge on the West Side of Pinnacles. Rated 5.8 R A1, it's actually almost an X, with 30 foot free-climbing runouts on merely good quality Pinnacles rock (excellent rock there can still break off).

The route was put up in 1976 by Glen Denny and Gary Coliver. These two put up a series of routes at Pinnacles which are way beyond bold - routes that see very, very few ascents. Routes that could kill you. Routes that are wildly famous (and, frankly, infamous) to those who know the park's climbing history.

This ascent was by two 25 year old climbers who, like me, are huge Pinnacles fans. They were making the route's third ascent. In 2025.

The two on this route? They were fanatically cautious. On a mere 5.8. And they pulled it off wonderfully. They were damn proud too once they'd finished.

They weren't proud because they'd done a 5.8 multi-pitch.

They were proud because they had the fire; fire enough to go for broke on a route which, like The Bachar-Yerian, absolutely requires going for broke. They'd done what legends before them had done and they'd done it in equal style.

All of which is a massive, massive difference from "just" another 5.8.

There are plenty of routes of all types to choose from (plenty!!). Not everything has to be dumbed down to a lowest denominator.

EDIT: And no, I obviously do not have any strong feelings on this issue ;)

I’m solidly in the don’t retrobolt camp, although a climb that I’m pretty sure I did the FA of was retrobolted and while I had fun when I originally climbed it, the modern version is a more enjoyable climb. It’s now a pg bolted climb with two raps instead of r rated with a walkoff. It also had no sentimental value for me nor was it of historical significance. I realize how starting down the retorbolting road is a slippery slope, but sometimes it may be okay. 

I actually prefer my own paraphrasing of Mahler’s paraphrasing which is “Tradition is not just the worship of ashes but is also the preservation of fire.” But who am I to retrophrase an interesting sentiment. 

My favorite part of your post is “Not every climb needs to be accessible for every climber.”  The reality of knowing that some climbs will always be beyond my capabilities (mental/physical) has provided me with a framework for motivation and improvement that sustains the joy I find from climbing. 

Nice post Brad!

Cheers!

ps. I’ve made it known that any of my FA’s are open to individual interpretation (even if this means adding bolts, I hope none are added though). This is just my own ideal and not meant to promote or condone retrobolting of others efforts. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

There is no April fools this year...

Nope... Wrong... ROFLMFAO!!!

Old people say things like, "Death where is thy sting?" They then guard their precious and precarious moments with intense attention. Are we, when championing a cult of risk, remaining in our lanes?

Thanks Lori for a climber centric political discussion. 

Lori Milaswrote:

Buenos Aires was done in 1974. I have never heard of the two guys who did the FA – – are they even alive? Yet Here we are 50 years later and that piece of real estate is frozen in time.  Can’t be touched or modified to meet the needs of climbers today. I understand why it’s a tough problem.

I see from my "ticks" that I lead it in February of 1993.  Don't remember anything specific about it.  I think it likely gets done more than folks think.

I think the "needs of climbers today" should include these types of routes.  

Brad Youngwrote:

And who gets to decide what are the "needs of climbers today?"

Is it decided by those who want maximum protection?

I know lots of kids who admire and aspire to many of the old traditions, including run out, even dangerous routes (now and then).

So maybe maximum protection isn't the "need."

Or, if looked at differently? If such routes are to be retro-bolted, who decides how many new bolts? Bolts every five feet? How about every 10 feet? Should any routes at all ever be run out? And who decides what's "run out?"

What if someone disagrees and doesn't want the retro bolts? Can they remove added bolts so that the route meets their needs/desires?

Arguments like this are nothing but a recipe for chaos. The only way that I can see to avoid such chaos is by respecting the rock, respecting the first ascentionists (yes, even if they're dead) and respecting traditions.

There are thousands and thousands of well protected routes - many, many more than any climber could do in a lifetime. Not every climb needs to be accessible to every climber. Not every climb needs to be "safe" (whatever that is).

EDIT: And Lori, if my post seems strident, it is. But please understand that my feelings are directed at the issue and most certainly not at you.

Routes should not be modified (either adding or removing bolts---or anything else) without the permission of the FA.  And if the FA can't be reached, then leave the route alone.  This is my understanding of the long accepted ethic that climbers should follow.  The "needs" of current climbers doesn't count.  

Oh ED you are going into the reverse osmosis debate. There is no evidence to prove a difference in syrup flavor, yes there is a difference in sap flavor. I can’t believe that you don’t accept the change. Its like when you went from traditional to sport, you need to embrace burning 70% less wood. Also oil and gas fired evaporation doesn’t change the flavor.
 I do see you climbing in the gym sometimes, I think. 

Brad Youngwrote:

And who gets to decide what are the "needs of climbers today?"

Is it decided by those who want maximum protection?

I know lots of kids who admire and aspire to many of the old traditions, including run out, even dangerous routes (now and then).

So maybe maximum protection isn't the "need."

Or, if looked at differently? If such routes are to be retro-bolted, who decides how many new bolts? Bolts every five feet? How about every 10 feet? Should any routes at all ever be run out? And who decides what's "run out?"

What if someone disagrees and doesn't want the retro bolts? Can they remove added bolts so that the route meets their needs/desires?

Arguments like this are nothing but a recipe for chaos. The only way that I can see to avoid such chaos is by respecting the rock, respecting the first ascentionists (yes, even if they're dead) and respecting traditions.

There are thousands and thousands of well protected routes - many, many more than any climber could do in a lifetime. Not every climb needs to be accessible to every climber. Not every climb needs to be "safe" (whatever that is).

EDIT: And Lori, if my post seems strident, it is. But please understand that my feelings are directed at the issue and most certainly not at you.

Well, Brad, this was my friendly way of not talking about Iran.  But you laid it out very well and in no way did I take your comments negatively.

I should have started my post about bolting with the acknowledgment that this will never be a problem for me because I strictly climb on top rope. So I may be the last one to climb Buenos Aires because it would be on a top rope.  I was just reflecting on my thoughts that it would be a really fun route if it wasn’t deadly. The climbing was mostly 5.8 until you get to that first bolt and I didn’t have the energy to continue past it.  

Guy straightened me out a couple years ago when he asked how I would feel if one of my favorite, beautiful roots, Chalk Up Another One, was retro bolted with some shiny new metal every 5 feet – – it would be an abomination.  

So it’s a really interesting study of culture here – – I’m guessing much the same at other venues – – but it feels to me that the younger world has moved on to bouldering. I literally never see anyone on my favorite routes.  I know one climber who has made it his mission to repeat all of Bachar’s routes, i’d say almost no one else who I know would even recognize the name John Bachar.  And it’s painful to see once classic routes, completely overgrown and unapproachable. Can’t we just cut back all that brush and maintain the place?    The answer is no. Nature rules here.

I hope to go back and climb Buenos Aires – – I understand that first bolt waaaayyy up there is where the climbing gets a little harder. Now I’m just purely interested.

—- 

We have some astronauts taking off today. I see some court battles that are finally going in a more favorable way on things like adding a ballroom to the White House with some kind of funky stuff underneath. Yesterday was the first day that the stock market did not further tank. And I saw a video of a young man who taught his octopus how to play piano.  I think life is looking up. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

It totally depends on the area. Places with thousands of climbs have plenty  of room for museum climbs.  Places with a scarcity of rock its a different story..  If it hasn't been climbed in a decade despite being almost roadside and sub 5.10 it needs fixing. Spare me the adventure bullshit . Anyone one who needs adventure on a climb with too many bolts for their liking can simply rack up with just a chalk bag , their shoes and a red t shirt.   As for who gets to make the call on where the new bolts go it's the same game it's always been. The cool kids and made men can do their dirty deeds while the new kids in town get their bolts chopped and ropes shit on. I nominate Ed , drill baby drill E to be the judge and chief sandbagger.  ;)  

Theres a bit of controversy for you ;)  

After experiencing CT rock for a few years I fully agree, the rock there was fully locked down as TRAD only when I got there, luckily the community came together and took action. A few lines got some retro bolts installed but mostly the community focused on obscure crags that literally had no traffic. There were crags just sitting around gathering moss while a handful of climbs were getting TRed into oblivion. 

I've probably climbed in JTree a total of 30-40 days and never thought that the place needed more bolted lines, a few more bolted anchors on top maybe but the more time one spends there the more they learn about all the sketchy and fun downclimbs.

I read this morning that the Trump administration is exploring oil deposits under JT, they think they can drill from outside the park with minimal surface damage...

Photo: Yosemite Rivers Aliance

I read this morning that the Trump administration is exploring oil deposits under JT, they think they can drill from outside the park with minimal surface damage...

MM you know that the crude is very deep along the edges of the San Andreas fault. Edge drilling cannot go that deep.

I watch “Land Man” and Billy Bob explains it all to that lawyer babe and the hot owner of the company.    “Twenty thousand feet deep” he reckoned for 400 million— Only a 10% chance.

The drilling rig needs to be set up almost in the center of HVCG. Those dirtbags will need to go.

APRIL FOOLS 

And it’s painful to see once classic routes, completely overgrown and unapproachable.

People vote with their feet. But good news, in another 20 years those climbs will be new FAAs (First Ascent Again). Joking but not really.

Time will tell, but not to me. In another two generations this will all be summed with a historical footnote. They won't care about someone else's great grandfather's rock climbing legacy, it will be a simple resource issue.

And at some point, society will collapse and the notion of rock climbing will revert to the crazies.

x15x15wrote:

Nope... Wrong... ROFLMFAO!!!

Well if the story about Kristi Noems husband had dropped today instead of yesterday I would have thought it was an Aprils fool joke. I'm still sort of like "Are you shitting me?"

Bingo..  how about the president of the United States is in a sworn deposition for raping a 13 year old child.  And his party still supports him and won't vote to impeach.  

I heard Boot Flake fell off today...how many times is that, now?

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

People vote with their feet. But good news, in another 20 years those climbs will be new FAAs (First Ascent Again). Joking but not really.

Time will tell, but not to me. In another two generations this will all be summed with a historical footnote. They won't care about someone else's great grandfather's rock climbing legacy, it will be a simple resource issue.

And at some point, society will collapse and the notion of rock climbing will revert to the crazies.

I don’t know how I got so sentimental about this place but I don’t want anything touched. Last year when I was climbing one of Randy’s great routes, I watched a pack of kids walk right by with their pads and backpacks, and not even look up at this soaring rock. They were headed toward a boulder which, at least in my opinion, didn’t compare.

So many of these existing routes that once were oncethe subject of super heroic feats are literally disappearing – – I guess we can’t stop time.

But just to add a small layer onto what we have been discussing here, a friend of mine weighed in on the subject this morning… “Remember, those early climbers never intended to repeat a route. They just brought the minimum gear needed to make it to the top one time. They were not thinking about creating classic masterpieces for future generations. Whereas these days we are thinking about all the climbers we hope will visit our route and we put a lot of time into placement of bolts and potential falls, etc.”

Guy, Landman is pure pleasure and Billy Bob has never been better. Can’t wait until the next season comes out.

So many of these existing routes that once were oncethe subject of super heroic feats are literally disappearing – – I guess we can’t stop time.

Nor should we. The very idea those guys get to freeze time in JT, or anywhere else, is so patently ridiculous I can't believe people still pretend to believe such things. Its simply not sustainable. Time will forget all of this.