Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #42
apogeewrote: Israel says no ground troops for them in Iran, no other nation is gonna help, basically Trump and his bootlicking "advisors" are just spending a billion a day on losing. Of course the bootlickers with two +/- brain cells still hang on every word from truth social while fuel prices soar... It used to be the world laughed at some of our choices of leaders, now they are angry. |
|
I have been wearing a WHOOP for five years now. I thought it would just be a gadget to play with and then forget about but instead it has been a real part of my health routine. Yesterday is a good case in point. It showed my strain for the day as 20.6. The theoretical max is 21. Alex Honnold didn’t have a strain that high when he free soloed El Cap. So when I got home and saw my strain score for the day, it worried me. I was trying to climb a 5.9 route – – I spent a long time in zone five, I spend a long time on the rock. So I knew right away I had overstrained and to try to balance this with an extra protein shake, earlier to bed, extra hydration, and to be aware that today might not be so wonderful. It’s also a big warning that I still have a long way to go in my own recovery – – in the past that same route would have generated a score of about 16. I’m working a lot harder to achieve what was much easier several years ago. Three years ago, I had some months of intense insomnia. My WHOOP really helped me turn that around, figure out what and when the problem areas were. I love Data. Now I really sleep, sometimes 10 hours and I just go with it. Can’t speak highly enough. —- I noticed we have used a lot of restraint lately in even mentioning politics or our president. This is getting harder for me. But because of how angry and distraught I have been I have followed through on my decision to turn it off for a while. I have intentionally found some new things to love and study and to think about. How wonderful that I can take some time to meander into subjects of interest. I have become fascinated by octopuses. Just found out that La Jolla Beach has a Cove where the common octopus hangs out and that could be a field trip. I also am planning to make a side trip to the Monterey Bay aquarium just to visit with their current octopus exhibit.I’m also totally into the tech industry right now especially semi conductors. And when I walk into the house and Tony is glued to some “news” about Trump, I just keep on walking. I think it’s done wonders for my joy. However, I have been thinking about this controversial subject: retro bolting. Yesterday I wandered over to Buenos Aires… The slab climb just to the left of Bogota. If I were guessing I’d say the first bolt was 30 feet into the climb. I mean at the point where I reached the bolt I was wondering why bother putting one there at all. I could’ve fallen anywhere along the way and died if I were on lead. That’s a very hard ground to hit. No one‘s going to climb that wonderful route today – – it’s far too dangerous imo. Put up in the early 70s, that was a different culture. Why deprive climbers today of a safe climb?  Jan chewed me out when I asked the same question about one of his delightful routes Good To The Last Drop. I’ve never seen anyone climb it. I was fortunate that an excellent climber was willing to take the long way to the top of that formation and set up a top rope for me. I am probably the last person who has climbed it. It was so fun. There’s not a prayer I will ever get to do it again.  |
|
There are nuances to the argument for refitting old test pieces. I agree, in general, that it's discouraging for good routes to get zero traffic. JT is a unique sub-culture. Plenty to do however it shakes out. |
apogeewrote: It's just all so stupid. And every time you think it can't possibly get any stupider it does. |
Mark E Dixonwrote: I've been using the WHOOP for 3 years. I got it out of curiosity; since I'm an Android developer, I like to try out new devices and apps. After trying it out for a month, I decided to keep it. However, like Ollie, I wouldn't highly recommend it for anyone who plans to use it to improve their climbing. Like he said, it's probably best used for people doing workouts that involve a lot of cardio. E.g. I can see improvements in my performance over the same hike over time. Even then, it's overkill. I can and do get the same feedback just by measuring total time for a workout. Throw in a Polar heart rate monitor (no subscription required), and I can record max HR over the session as well, and see how that behaves over time. I'm skeptical about those research papers that said WHOOP was highly accurate in measuring HRV. I doubt its sleep accuracy, and if it gets that wrong, I don't see how it can get HRV correct. It has shown me "sleeping" while in the dentist's chair, and I assure you that was not the case. My average HRV data shows an interesting trend: it trends down in the winter time and up in the summer time. Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about this, and I also don't know whether this says more about the device than about me. On top of that, they've changed their algorithms multiple times while I've used it. That makes it difficult for me to compare my performance on a route this year vs a couple years ago. Did my performance change, or was it the algorithm? As a software developer and a climber, I'm jealous of whoever got to work on the Lattice Training app. That must be such an awesome project! Hey dudes hmu if you need an extra hand! |
|
I'm definitely not a tech gadget guy. I bought a Tindec to measure finger force along with an unlevel edge last June. I've been using the unlevel edge along with doing minimum edge and one arm hangs on a fingerboard as the last stage of my warm-up since then, but haven't yet bothered to set the Tindec up. I have definitely improved my fingers strength, but I have no idea of how much.  Ever seen one of these? You stand on the 2 by 4 and try to curl into the edge (overcoming isometric). The idea is that a flat edge loads your fingers unevenly. |
|
Lori…… re “retro bolting”… Wow I thought Bob was teaching you “the way”. Safe Climbs If that’s what you want go sport climbing. JT would be ruined forever if this was allowed. Just say No No No |
|
Guy I think the idea of retro bolting J Tree is an April fool’s prank. |
|
There is no April fools this year. Reality is far stranger than fiction in the trump era.... no matter how crazy your joke is it's not likely to be as fucked as tomorrows headlines... |
 No reverse osmosis bull$h!t here... You can really taste the difference between sap that's just boiled off and the RO produced syrup. The boiled stuff has a deeper carmelized/ "leather" taste.  I use a bunch in cooking (added to a red tomato gravy/sauce is awesome,) so I like the darker amber grades.  Spring has arrived in this part of Vermont... Mostly all good: most of the snow is gone, the ice climbers are crying, local crags are drying out, Mass-hole skiers have left, and the spring bird are singing. The bad: mud season is here and my pre-buy oil (at $3.17/ gal) ran out and our rapacious fuel distributor (without my permission,) decided to fill my tank with $5.67/gallon fuel oil. I still had 2/3 of a tank... Anyone know what an AWACS plane costs... Biden got a ton of cr@p about 13 killed during the pull-out from Afghanistan (that the previous guy negotiated...), how many have been killed and wounded in the current debacle? ed "these are the worst of times, these are the worst of times..." e ps: When it comes to retro bolting: "drill, baby, drill..." |
|
With over 10,000 routes in the Park, there are no compelling arguments for retro-bolting a somewhat mediocre slab climb with a high first bolt. This is particularly true since the adjacent Bogota is well bolted and you can set up a TR from it. |
Lori Milaswrote: Lori, do you climb with your WHOOP? |
|
Ed, whose sugar house? Its really nice to wood fire as well. When my sister switched to oil burner it took a lot of the charm away. Takes a lot of the fun out of the boiling party when you are freezing your ass off.. |
|
Guy, Randy… I have some heartfelt thoughts on bolting here in Joshua Tree and the preservation of history. I’ve done so much hiking and exploring of routes that Based strictly on the bolting of a route I can almost know the life and times of the FAs. Buenos Aires was done in 1974. I have never heard of the two guys who did the FA – – are they even alive? Yet Here we are 50 years later and that piece of real estate is frozen in time. Can’t be touched or modified to meet the needs of climbers today. I understand why it’s a tough problem. I’ve been lucky to climb mostly with Bob who remembers the history of most of these routes. He describes just very different headspace for the earliest climbers here and I have a mixture of admiration and awe. But then on a day like yesterday I was happily moving up the face of that rock(on top rope) I traveled a long way before finally seeing that first bolt I was astonished – – couldn’t believe anyone would do that. Today I realize no one is going to climb Buenos Aires cuz unnecessary risk taking is not a thing anymore. So there it sits. I don’t see the harm in one more bolt but I don’t get a vote. —- Dragons gave a pretty good overview of WHOOP. I do wear it 24 seven. I had to satisfy myself that EMF‘s were minimal with the device. Had the experience of definitely feeling weaker when I wore an Apple Watch. I don’t know whether it measures a strain or stress. I’m sure it’s not always accurate but it knows when I take a walk and it knows when I crank it up on the rock. It knows when I take a breath. It also is surprisingly accurate with. letting me know if I’m getting rundown or sick. It’s been comforting to have this device follow me over the last six months— especially the recovery aspect, my recovery scores were way off September through December and I knew I was not healthy. Then mid January my numbers started to normalize. So I understand the device and what it offers and it’s just become quite normal for me – – I don’t need anything more. I think the plan I am on would replace this device if it broke and when they upgrade, they give you the upgrade for a song. |
Lori Milaswrote: And who gets to decide what are the "needs of climbers today?" Is it decided by those who want maximum protection? I know lots of kids who admire and aspire to many of the old traditions, including run out, even dangerous routes (now and then). So maybe maximum protection isn't the "need." Or, if looked at differently? If such routes are to be retro-bolted, who decides how many new bolts? Bolts every five feet? How about every 10 feet? Should any routes at all ever be run out? And who decides what's "run out?" What if someone disagrees and doesn't want the retro bolts? Can they remove added bolts so that the route meets their needs/desires? Arguments like this are nothing but a recipe for chaos. The only way that I can see to avoid such chaos is by respecting the rock, respecting the first ascentionists (yes, even if they're dead) and respecting traditions. There are thousands and thousands of well protected routes - many, many more than any climber could do in a lifetime. Not every climb needs to be accessible to every climber. Not every climb needs to be "safe" (whatever that is). EDIT: And Lori, if my post seems strident, it is. But please understand that my feelings are directed at the issue and most certainly not at you. |
Brad Youngwrote: “Tradition is not the worship of ashes but the preservation of fire.” - Gustav Mahler paraphrasing Thomas More |
Lori Milaswrote: Sort of feel like preserving history is a good thing as well. I’m not passionate about it, but definitely fall into the “trad” crowd. If a climb is deemed to dangerous now, Top Rope it. |
|
It totally depends on the area. Places with thousands of climbs have plenty of room for museum climbs. Places with a scarcity of rock its a different story.. If it hasn't been climbed in a decade despite being almost roadside and sub 5.10 it needs fixing. Spare me the adventure bullshit . Anyone one who needs adventure on a climb with too many bolts for their liking can simply rack up with just a chalk bag , their shoes and a red t shirt. As for who gets to make the call on where the new bolts go it's the same game it's always been. The cool kids and made men can do their dirty deeds while the new kids in town get their bolts chopped and ropes shit on. I nominate Ed , drill baby drill E to be the judge and chief sandbagger. ;) Theres a bit of controversy for you ;) |
|
Daniel Shivelywrote: "Tradition is not the worship of ashes but the preservation of fire.” - Gustav Mahler paraphrasing Thomas More" It's both. I can give two examples of why tradition matters and why it involves both: - the "worship of ashes" - which I presume means admiring those who came before/those who made the routes in question, and also; - the "preservation of fire." There could be literally hundreds of examples, but just two. First, regarding a famous climb, The Bachar-Yerian in Tuolumne Meadows. Rated 5.11c X. It's famous. Why? Not because it's a great quality 5.11 face climb. It's famous because its a great quality 5.11 face climb AND for its incredibly bold history AND for the extreme courage/boldness and just "go" that one must have to lead it (I've never been on it). All of this in the very best traditions of our sport. All of this would disappear - just evaporate - if The Bachar-Yerian was retro-bolted. Not every climb needs to be accessible to every climber. Second, here's a photo of a similar situation, but regarding a route which is unknown other than to a small niche of climbers.  The two climbers are on a route called Daedalus. It's on Machete Ridge on the West Side of Pinnacles. Rated 5.8 R A1, it's actually almost an X, with 30 foot free-climbing runouts on merely good quality Pinnacles rock (excellent rock there can still break off). The route was put up in 1976 by Glen Denny and Gary Coliver. These two put up a series of routes at Pinnacles which are way beyond bold - routes that see very, very few ascents. Routes that could kill you. Routes that are wildly famous (and, frankly, infamous) to those who know the park's climbing history. This ascent was by two 25 year old climbers who, like me, are huge Pinnacles fans. They were making the route's third ascent. In 2025. The two on this route? They were fanatically cautious. On a mere 5.8. And they pulled it off wonderfully. They were damn proud too once they'd finished. They weren't proud because they'd done a 5.8 multi-pitch. They were proud because they had the fire; fire enough to go for broke on a route which, like The Bachar-Yerian, absolutely requires going for broke. They'd done what legends before them had done and they'd done it in equal style. All of which is a massive, massive difference from "just" another 5.8. There are plenty of routes of all types to choose from (plenty!!). Not everything has to be dumbed down to a lowest denominator. EDIT: And no, I obviously do not have any strong feelings on this issue ;) |
|
Keep in mind that the person arguing for retrobolting Buenos Aires does not lead. Lori climbs with guides who put up top ropes and offer encouragement, beta, and a tight rope. The question is analogous to seeking health care advice from Donald Trump. Stay in your lane. |
