New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #39

Lori Milaswrote:

OMG Brad.... I would not challenge a good climber here to find space for a new route.  They'll find it.  

I have a favorite route on Cap Rock... Black Ice... neither here nor there, but it's just one of those to try.  It's just a perfect patch of blackish rock, smooth, and hard.  

I've been wanting to go back and try a little harder.  Got it all but one move.  The rock is so nice.

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I do hope we can return to this AI conversation from time to time.  It's SO new, and took a lot of us by surprise.  In theory, I would have said "NO WAY". Nothing fake or phony for me.  But in practice, I wonder if it might be better to look at along the lines of any consumer purchase:  if it's good, it's a keeper, and if it's bad music, no one will want it.  If AI has figured out a way to make music more delightful, compelling, resonating.. then we'll find a way to have it.

(Not to throw Tony under the bus, but he's been so ADAMANT that he hates rap, and will not listen to it, ever.  So, I played my favorite version of Love The Way You Lie... just to see his reaction.  He got very interested in the lyrics, the poetry... and had to admit that he loved the song.  Now he would consider listening to actual Eminem... I doubt he will love it.)  

I was also thinking about Musak.  Wasn't that the 'elevator' version of Stairway to Heaven that we all hated?  (My mother loved it).  Pretty much shredded popular songs into bland instrumental... I'm not sure how Zep would feel about what they did to The Immigrant Song.      Was it copyright infringed?  Did anyone clutch their pearls over this?  It was awful... most importantly we refused to buy it.  

I think life progresses, and this may be a part of that evolution.  

In the US there is a legal concept called mechanical license, this means that anyone can produce and distribute a cover of a song as long as the statutory royalty rate is paid. I think that this is lame and is an infringement of intellectual property rights. I can’t wrap my head around using another person’s creative efforts for my own profit. 

Ship’s video is a pretty good explanation of what’s going on with this. Rick Beato has a good video about this too, he also has a cool channel with many great interviews. Sorry for no hot link, but I’m juggling several things as once currently. 

Lori Milaswrote:

...

I’m just being honest about my surprising response to some of what I’ve recently heard. I listen to A LOT of music.  And I’m asking legit questions about how it all works… how it’s different from any other artist or musician doing a cover or reworking an established song.  How or whether the original artist is credited and  compensated.  

Lori, sometimes I think you're trolling. I'll assume you're not. But you know about copyright, surely.

You need a license to play any song that's not public domain. You pay the license, the company that owns the music makes a bunch of money, and the artist gets a residual.
Example: cloudcovermusic.com/music-l…

As a general rule, a musician has to pay a licensing fee to cover any song. Fees can differ depending on whether it's a straightforward cover or a "derivative work". More info in this reddit post.

I imagine that legally all AI music is derivative work, assuming the training data was all copyrighted. If that's the case, then all the outputs are massive copyright infringement.

OTOH! If Jimmy Page wants to create a corpus of music and train an LLM on it, and then use that to produce his own music, that should be fair game and he's within his rights to do it, so far as I know. So it's a bit tricky.

Do the AI productions that you referenced infringe copyrights? I don't know, but I guess we will find out, since I imagine there will be lawsuits and takedown notices if there's a chance that they do.

Actually it's kind of funny talking about Jimmy Page, because he supposedly was known to "borrow" riffs according to this YT video (and that got LZ in trouble a while back when they faced a lawsuit over Stairway).

Not clean, but I got up it.

Heart of Darkness, JTree

C Miller wrote:

 

It's stick season here. the grey lul between fall colors and good rock climbing weather and winter skiing and ice climbing pardise. you can see some fresh snow up high in this shot from Isa's front yard.

Thankful for these small boulders along our dog walking route. Sometimes Etienne will relax for a few minutes to allow us to do our mini circuit, but often his wild energy is too much and there’s no slowing him down. 

I hope that everyone is having a good Monday.

C Miller wrote:

Whoa!  The Schwagner!  Skin man...wow.  Great to see him.

C Miller wrote:

This is a really cool video, and an impressive feat, as impressive as anyone sending Midnight Lightning…which indeed is impressive. However, 60 really isn’t that old. I understand the attraction of hanging one’s hat on the “I’m old” trope, but I think that it is important to realize that we are not in the grave yet and have many good years still ahead of us. For example, a very good friend, who started climbing in her late thirties, just sent her first .12d at 65. From my experience, she may be somewhat of an outlier, but not a particularly unusual one. She hopes to continue improving. 

that was pretty cool. 

Frank Steinwrote:

This is a really cool video, and an impressive feat, as impressive as anyone sending Midnight Lightning…which indeed is impressive. However, 60 really isn’t that old. I understand the attraction of hanging one’s hat on the “I’m old” trope, but I think that it is important to realize that we are not in the grave yet, and have many good years still ahead of us. For example, a very good friend, who started climbing in her late thirties, just sent her first .12d at 65. From my experience, she may be somewhat of an outlier, but not a particularly unusual one. She hopes to continue improving. 

video is cool but you lost me at high-ball bouldering....

Brian in SLCwrote:

Whoa!  The Schwagner!  Skin man...wow.  Great to see him.

IME salesman of the year  

C Miller wrote:

Tim Wagner on the classic Midnight Lightning (V8).

Thanks for putting this up. Perhaps the most famous historical problem. My old friend John Sherman was going to try it again at age 60 but I don't know if he attempted it. It's good to see the photos of bouldering that crop up here. 

Regarding climbers who uttered antisemitic remarks, Robert Underhill comes to mind. And that's unfortunate since he brought the techniques of alpine (and rock) climbing to the US in the 1920s and 30s. The AAC has presented an annual award that bore his name (and Miriam's) from the 1980s (the first recipient was John Bachar), but they changed the title in 2023. 

Has anyone here watched Wayward on Netflix? One episode looks like it might have been filmed in the Gunks.

Here are a couple of photos that show just how great the rock is at Joe’s Valley. The climb is Sun in my eyes traverse. It starts matched on the sloping rail that my left foot is on in the first picture, then goes around the corner. As you are climbing you don’t realize how horizontal you are. Neither photo is from the send go. 

John Gillwrote:

Regarding climbers who uttered antisemitic remarks, Robert Underhill comes to mind. And that's unfortunate since he brought the techniques of alpine (and rock) climbing to the US in the 1920s and 30s. The AAC has presented an annual award that bore his name (and Miriam's) from the 1980s (the first recipient was John Bachar), but they changed the title in 2023. 

Here's an article in Climbing on Underhill's virulent antisemitism and the AAC's decision to rename the award. https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/robert-underhill-antisemitism-climbing-award-rename-aac/

Here is a personal account (not all negative) by a contemporary of mine, Steve Jervis (he was a few years ahead of me in the same high school). https://digitalcommons.dartmouth.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1739&context=appalachia

More or less explicit antisemitic practices existed in many American institutions. The Ivy League had Jewish quotas (and Catholic quotas as well). I think these extended into the 1950's.  Over the years, I've been to at least two weddings at clubs that wouldn't admit me as a member, and in high school, some friends and I used to play basketball at a New York City athletic club that excluded Jews as members (a father, who was a member,  got us in).

One year, around 1958 or so, my parents sent me to an outdoor activity ranch in Colorado (horseback riding and mountaineering were the two activities).  I became friendly with the owner's daughter, who was a teenager like me.  When I somehow mentioned that I was Jewish, she expressed great surprise, saying that she thought all Jewish people had slanty eyes. (At least she didn't believe we had horns too.). This did not affect our friendship, but I remain surprised to this day at the level of isolation that could have produced such an impression.

So the fact that antisemitic elements were present in the AMC and AAC isn't even a little surprising (what would be surprising would be if such elements were not present).  But the gutter virulence of Underhill's comments, and his assumption, in promulgating them, that they were ordinary and acceptable opinions, is, to me, astonishing coming from a Harvard professor of philosophy.  Apparently, even scholarly immersion in the great thinkers of the ages is not necessarily enough to overcome deep-seated prejudice.

Underhill’s comments and views have been around a very long time. Why did the AAC suddenly have the epiphany that the name of this award should be changed? Hard to imagine it was singularly Rassler’s email.

rgoldwrote:

More or less explicit antisemitic practices existed in many American institutions. The Ivy League had Jewish quotas (and Catholic quotas as well). I think these extended into the 1950's.  Over the years, I've been to at least two weddings at clubs that wouldn't admit me as a member, and in high school, some friends and I used to play basketball at a New York City athletic club that excluded Jews as members (a father, who was a member,  got us in).

So the fact that antisemitic elements were present in the AMC and AAC isn't even a little surprising (what would be surprising would be if such elements were not present).  But the gutter virulence of Underhill's comments, and his assumption, in promulgating them, that they were ordinary and acceptable opinions, is, to me, astonishing coming from a Harvard professor of philosophy.  Apparently, even scholarly immersion in the great thinkers of the ages is not necessarily enough to overcome deep-seated prejudice.

From what I've read legacy admissions to elite universities like Harvard were initially devised because white christians felt too many Jews were being admitted when the process was purely merit based. So I don't think it's surprising that attitudes like that were present. And of course legacy admissions to this day still give a big leg up to mediocre white kids though some schools have started getting rid of them.

 There is that story about Groucho Marx, partly or wholly apocryphal, that eventually mutated into several versions. The version I'm most familiar with involved a well-known men's club in L.A. during the old Hollywood days. This club was once highly prestigious, and membership was sought out as an entree into well-heeled circles and big-time money. Many of Groucho's friends became members, and so it wasn't long before Groucho himself did the customary thing and applied for hallowed membership. Not long afterwards, he received a courier-delivered letter politely informing him that the club forbade Jews as members "... at this time". Undeterred, Groucho dutifully reapplied every year thereafter for years and years. Eventually, by the late 1940s the club reversed its long-standing policy and informed Groucho that the way was clear for his membership to proceed.

Groucho immediately replied with a letter of his own officially withdrawing his membership, accompanied by the now famous quip :  " I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."

With snow in the forecast, this morning’s walk may be our last of the season for this zone. Hopefully skiing season is arriving soon.

Hi everyone.  The struggle continues.  Did the stand start (V5) and matched my high point from the sit, but they are not giving this boulder away.  I turn 65 tomorrow but not feeling old (yet).

Frank Steinwrote:

I finally managed to climb something this year.

I grew up in a totalitarian country. Kimmel was just cancelled immediately after FCC threatened ABC’s license because Kimmel speculated that the Kirk shooter had MAGA ties. This sounds painfully familiar, and I’ll just leave it at that.

Signed,

Former Army officer and combat veteran, and a firm believer in democracy and free discourse. 

Thank you for your service Frank.