New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #39

Daniel, I’d be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this. You were going somewhere with them…

I’ve really battled to find my center ground in the realm of health. As time has gone on, I have backed away from conventional medical care more and more.  Lately I would say I am appreciative that it’s there for emergencies, but otherwise leave me alone.  In that respect, I have refused all vaccines, refused the automatic statin drugs that are prescribed, refused antihypertensives.  I’m due for another mammogram and giving that thought. But I’m also rethinking the shingles and pneumonia vaccines. 

My feeling has been that the body wants to heal itself – – just give it the right food, sunshine, clean water, and of course joyfulness.  I have wondered what will happen when I come up against something I cannot heal naturally. Actually I was just there with eight weeks of blood loss and a suitcase packed in case I needed to get to the ER for a surgery. I just really believe in listening to the body and trusting.  I seem to be turning the corner on that crisis, but Tony would have advised to pop into the ER on day one and “get it taken care of” right out of the gate.  He thinks there is a pill or surgery for every problem so we have fun with those differences.

But I also know that until recently we were only intended to live about 40 years and our bodies run out of steam after that. I don’t know if organic living solves all those problems, but it does solve some. In annual lab work we discovered  I have deficiencies in almost every mineral and many vitamins and I do supplement just to try to keep up. (Probably due to Celiac).  And also, I am really aware of the difference in my ability to be active and climb when I bump up that protein and take modest amounts of supplements.  It’s been a real eye-opener that many people here do just fine without any of that.  So we all carefully forge our own ways.

Lori Milaswrote:

Daniel, I’d be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this. You were going somewhere with them…

I’ve really battled to find my center ground in the realm of health. As time has gone on, I have backed away from conventional medical care more and more.  Lately I would say I am appreciative that it’s there for emergencies, but otherwise leave me alone.  In that respect, I have refused all vaccines, refused the automatic statin drugs that are prescribed, refused antihypertensives.  I’m due for another mammogram and giving that thought. But I’m also rethinking the shingles and pneumonia vaccines. 

My feeling has been that the body wants to heal itself – – just give it the right food, sunshine, clean water, and of course joyfulness.  I have wondered what will happen when I come up against something I cannot heal naturally. Actually I was just there with eight weeks of blood loss and a suitcase packed in case I needed to get to the ER for a surgery. I just really believe in listening to the body and trusting.  I seem to be turning the corner on that crisis, but Tony would have advised to pop into the ER on day one and “get it taken care of” right out of the gate.  He thinks there is a pill or surgery for every problem so we have fun with those differences.

But I also know that until recently we were only intended to live about 40 years and our bodies run out of steam after that. I don’t know if organic living solves all those problems, but it does solve some. In annual lab work we discovered  I have deficiencies in almost every mineral and many vitamins and I do supplement just to try to keep up. (Probably due to Celiac).  And also, I am really aware of the difference in my ability to be active and climb when I bump up that protein and take modest amounts of supplements.  It’s been a real eye-opener that many people here do just fine without any of that.  So we all carefully forge our own ways.

It sounds like you have a well thought out perspective about all of this. I share much of your ideas about health care, and have definitely appreciated being stitched up, having broken bones set, have work related fragments removed from an eye along with antibiotics to treat the infection, etc. But, I also have had some questions about certain practices and also the potential for over prescribing of medications that treat symptoms instead of addressing the root causes of some illnesses. And at some point, I may be faced with a catastrophic illness, but I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it and evaluate all options when deciding how best to proceed. 

One of my best suggestions is, and this could be more important than diet and exercise, is to be aware of stress and try to understand its causes and find a way to let it go. My dad is my greatest inspiration in this regard. Somehow, no matter how bad or serious the situation he faces is, he finds a way to understand it, then work through the challenges, then get back to his normal routines. I think that his general positivity has really contributed to his longevity and aware and active existence. He is 84, lives alone(but has strong social connections), exercises daily, drives excessively, and still compassionately puts me in my place when I need it. Sometimes I picture myself at his age and honestly it makes me wonder if I’ll be as strong as he is. We chat several times a week and I’m happy for every conversation. 

Thanks for the opportunity to ramble on a bit and I hope this can add to the conversation. 

P.S. Lori, I wasn’t insinuating that you don’t understand or deal with stress effectively. I‘m just pointing out that I think that stress management is an important and sometimes overlooked component to overall health. 

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Maybe not all humans need the recommended amounts of anything. There is a heck of a lot of unaccounted for variability of humans to contend with. At some point, how we actually feel on a daily basis and our overall “healthiness” could be considered too.  This is just something that I ponder and not a criticism of how anyone else evaluates or relates to their health. Your information  about the target range and the differing recommendations kind of illustrate my point. And yeah, this topic is quite the interesting can of worms. 

 Vitamin D has been touted as a panacea, though studies have shown benefit inconsistently. Still, it’s one of maybe two supplements that have shown any utility at all, yet everyone seems to take a half dozen unproven pills, often while simultaneously disparaging ”Big Pharma”.

And you’re right, there is variability to how much is enough. In Helen‘s case, her osteopenia shows she needs more, + weight bearing exercise. Population data suggests targeting levels between 30-40, but no more than 50-60, which may be harmful. Not sure how she’d feel that.

It doesn’t need to be taken with a ton of fat, only 10-15 g - a tablespoon of olive oil, quarter avocado,  or couple eggs will do.

Lori Milaswrote:

Daniel, I’d be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this. You were going somewhere with them…

I’ve really battled to find my center ground in the realm of health. As time has gone on, I have backed away from conventional medical care more and more.  Lately I would say I am appreciative that it’s there for emergencies, but otherwise leave me alone.  In that respect, I have refused all vaccines, refused the automatic statin drugs that are prescribed, refused antihypertensives.  I’m due for another mammogram and giving that thought. But I’m also rethinking the shingles and pneumonia vaccines. 

My feeling has been that the body wants to heal itself – – just give it the right food, sunshine, clean water, and of course joyfulness.  I have wondered what will happen when I come up against something I cannot heal naturally. Actually I was just there with eight weeks of blood loss and a suitcase packed in case I needed to get to the ER for a surgery. I just really believe in listening to the body and trusting.  I seem to be turning the corner on that crisis, but Tony would have advised to pop into the ER on day one and “get it taken care of” right out of the gate.  He thinks there is a pill or surgery for every problem so we have fun with those differences.

But I also know that until recently we were only intended to live about 40 years and our bodies run out of steam after that. I don’t know if organic living solves all those problems, but it does solve some. In annual lab work we discovered  I have deficiencies in almost every mineral and many vitamins and I do supplement just to try to keep up. (Probably due to Celiac).  And also, I am really aware of the difference in my ability to be active and climb when I bump up that protein and take modest amounts of supplements.  It’s been a real eye-opener that many people here do just fine without any of that.  So we all carefully forge our own ways.

There’s reason to be skeptical of conventional Western medicine, but you can also take that thought process too far imo. I can definitely understand not embracing a pharmaceutical solution to all your problems. But a strategy of waiting until you need to go to the ER may end up being too late.

Evolutionarily, we’re only “meant“ to live long enough to produce offspring who can live independently. So anything after 30ish is gravy.

Improved water/sanitation in the 1800s effectively doubled average lifespan, but that was only to the mid-40s. We can thank modern medicine for the rest. Three main advances are responsible for the lion‘s share of gains in life expectancy: obstetric care, antibiotics, and vaccines. 

Adults didn‘t die because they ran out of steam; it was stuff like dysentery, pneumonia, and post-partum hemorrhage. But vaccine preventable illnesses allowed many kids to make it to adulthood in the first place, so I wouldn’t turn your back on them just as your immune system begins to wane (naturally).

Modern medicine’s main fault is focusing on treating disease, rather than preventing them - vaccines accomplish the latter. Living naturally wouldn’t have eradicated smallpox, and until recently, relegated measles, mumps, and polio to the developing world. If that same technology can help avoid shingles and pneumonia, why reject it?

Permabetawrote:

... a strategy of waiting until you need to go to the ER may end up being too late.

I also try to avoid all treatments, including pills. (I do get most of the recommended vaccines but not all of them.)

I just wanted to mention that if you notice vision problems, that's a case where you should rush without delay to a ophthalmologist, since it may mean the difference between becoming blind and not. I mean asap, not next week or "let's wait and see whether it gets better for a couple days". Call the ophthalmologist's office and describe the symptoms so they can decide whether it's an emergency. IME they will squeeze you in the next day, even on holidays.

Old lady Hwrote:

Okay, a stupid question. Dunno why, but my blood tests came up low on vit D, even though I get a huge amount of sun. I also now have osteopenia. 

So, I'm supposed to take D. Not on an "empty stomach" because it is absorbed better with food. 

Okay, so googly gooing gets me that it's fat soluble, so eat something.

But eat how much? Is the milk in a latte good enough? Or do I need an actual meal? Could I just toss a small handful of almonds down, with the pills? 

I don't take anything at all, regularly, so it's tough to remember to grab these. And that osteo is, well, scary. Don't wanna go there at all, but definitely not this early (68).

So if I can make it easier.... that's a plus.

Oh, and no, I'm not a first thing in the morning breakfast eater. 

Thanks! I'm pretty sure we have peeps on here who know this sort of stuff!

Helen

Helen,

Please read this:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/time-for-more-vitamin-d
Snippets:
> Except during the summer months, the skin makes little if any vitamin D from the sun at latitudes above 37 degrees north (in the United States, the shaded region in the map) or below 37 degrees south of the equator. People who live in these areas are at relatively greater risk for vitamin D deficiency.
> What's more, your skin's production of vitamin D is influenced by age (people ages 65 and over generate only one-fourth as much as people in their 20s do)
...
I think your best bet, if possible, is to ask your doctor to refer you to a nutritionist who can take a look at your diet, give you feedback, and make recommendations. I don't see how anyone here can tell you how much Vit D to take and how to take it without a good comprehensive look at your eating habits.

Usually, I dislike the replies that say "just see a doctor", but I think for questions like you have, you either need to research it yourself or go to an expert.

I track my food intake using cronometer, so I have an approximate idea what I'm getting for most nutrients. I realize most people would find food tracking too onerous. If that's the case, and you have a deficiency, I think it makes sense to get help from a nutritionist. I think nutritionists are even covered under Medicare?

Also, I agree with Daniel that everyone is different, so generalizing about what people need is foolish. Still, you have to start somewhere. If you have a deficiency and it's showing up as osteopenia, better to try doing something about it. Unless you want to take the approach that death is natural, so whatever, which is also a valid outlook.

dragonswrote:

I also try to avoid all treatments, including pills. (I do get most of the recommended vaccines but not all of them.)

I just wanted to mention that if you notice vision problems, that's a case where you should rush without delay to an ophthalmologist, since it may mean the difference between becoming blind and not. I mean asap, not next week or "let's wait and see whether it gets better for a couple days". Call the ophthalmologist's office and describe the symptoms so they can decide whether it's an emergency. IME they will squeeze you in the next day, even on holidays.

I also avoid taking pills, but would trust my physician, if (s)he said I needed to do so.

i mean, how do you draw the line? When is the doctor’s word valid, versus ”trusting your body”? If you are willing to take insulin for diabetes, why not a medicine for cholesterol, or high blood pressure? While it’s certainly one’s right, letting nature take its course for an easily treated vitamin deficiency seems pretty tragic.

Permabetawrote:

I also avoid taking pills, but would trust my physician, if (s)he said I needed to do so.

i mean, how do you draw the line? When is the doctor’s word valid, versus ”trusting your body”? If one is willing to take insulin for diabetes, why not a medicine for cholesterol, or high blood pressure? While it’s certainly one’s right, letting nature take its course for an easily treated vitamin deficiency seems pretty tragic.

I generally agree with your assessment here, but I think it’s worth thinking about how known and often real side effects of certain medications can impact overall health more than the symptoms they’re supposed to treat. And like I said upthread, often drugs used to treat symptoms  simply mask the root causes of the illness, thereby not treating the illness, but more accurately, controlling the symptoms. Obviously, this is a complex topic, and I find it challenging to come up with concrete rules about how to proceed. 

****Lori, I edited my upthread reply to you for clarity. I hope that you see it. 

I hope that everyone has a great weekend. 

Really good conversation here, especially if the point is how to extend healthy aging as long as possible.    

My friend (same friend) had her bladder, uterus, ovaries and appendix removed in one fell swoop about 20 years ago. She had a small non-invasive cancer of her bladder. But when I asked her why she let the surgeon take everything else she said “I don’t know, because the doctors said so.”  I asked her if she asked for a second opinion or did any of her own research and she said no! Was she offered hormone replacement treatment? No! She subsequently had one kidney removed due to an infection in her ostomy, but when the other kidney got infected things got scary. This is my version of the cascading consequences of just “trusting the doctors“.  I know that sounds a little harsh, but I have sure seen it here at home as well where the solution to a problem is a heavy duty pill or surgery and it just leads to the next heavy duty drug or surgery.

so I’m just extraordinarily cautious. I’m aware that if the only tool in your tool chest is a hammer everything looks like a nail.  

But I think there is an upside. If we live according to clean principles 90% of the time, we can probably afford some more radical interventions or even mistakes.  I was talking with my daughter yesterday – – I was trying to decide whether to allow the contrast gadolinium with an upcoming MRI. That is a really toxic substance that never totally leaves the body and in some cases really does some harm. On the other hand, it’ll sure light up any problem areas on the MRI that could be missed otherwise.

I’m not sure which way I’m gonna go on this just yet – – I will be talking with my doctor – – but I kind of think that since MRI’s and other procedures happen seldom to never for me I’d be OK with the contrast.  We have a pretty solid foundation.    

—-

As I’ve been convalescing it does my heart good to go look at rocks.     “Touch and Go” looks pretty cool!  From a distance it’s hard to see, is this a stemming route or a foot and hand jam route?

dragonswrote:

I also try to avoid all treatments, including pills. (I do get most of the recommended vaccines but not all of them.)

I just wanted to mention that if you notice vision problems, that's a case where you should rush without delay to a ophthalmologist, since it may mean the difference between becoming blind and not. I mean asap, not next week or "let's wait and see whether it gets better for a couple days". Call the ophthalmologist's office and describe the symptoms so they can decide whether it's an emergency. IME they will squeeze you in the next day, even on holidays.

This         And along the same lines, you do not want to get shingles (it can cause blindness + very painful) and the vaccine is incredibly effective.  And, FWIW, I'd be dead (twice) if it were not for antibiotics, or if I had waited to see "if it will run its course."  

Lori Milaswrote:

My friend (same friend) had her bladder, uterus, ovaries and appendix removed in one fell swoop about 20 years ago. She had a small non-invasive cancer of her bladder. But when I asked her why she let the surgeon take everything else she said “I don’t know, because the doctors said so.”  I asked her if she asked for a second opinion or did any of her own research and she said no! Was she offered hormone replacement treatment? No! She subsequently had one kidney removed due to an infection in her ostomy ...

This text doesn't make sense.
Removal of her bladder, uterus, ovaries and appendix doesn't require ostomy.

Have you forgot to mention rectal cancer?

Are you sure that this decision was up to an opinion of a single surgeon?
I expect it to be reviewed by another surgeon or a review board (in case it happened in a large hospital)

Lori Milaswrote:

 – – I was trying to decide whether to allow the contrast gadolinium with an upcoming MRI. That is a really toxic substance that never totally leaves the body and in some cases really does some harm. On the other hand, it’ll sure light up any problem areas on the MRI that could be missed otherwise.

I’m not sure which way I’m gonna go on this just yet – – I will be talking with my doctor – – but I kind of think that since MRI’s and other procedures happen seldom to never for me I’d be OK with the contrast.  We have a pretty solid foundation.    

I've had a lot of contrast MRI's. After my last one, last spring, I'll never submit to gadolinium again. A few weeks after the procedure I developed what I'd call "severe" joint inflammation in my feet, ankles, and knees. At the advice of a local homeopath I started taking an anti-inflammatory called KaraMD Comfort Guard. (Turmeric root powder/ Boswellia/serrata resin extract powder/turmeric 95% root extract powder (curcumin) Ginger root powder). YMMV, but this product began calming my inflammation within 24 hours, with complete relief in 48.

Anyway, there are alternatives to gadolinium. 

https://news.mit.edu/2017/metal-free-mri-contrast-agent-could-be-safer-some-patients-0712 

https://www.diagnosticimaging.com/view/manganese-based-contrast-agent-offers-safer-non-toxic-option-for-mri-scans

diagnosticimaging.com has a good newsletter you can subscribe to for free.

Edit, Sunrise in my neck of the woods last week. A balmy 28°F.

Tim Schafstallwrote:

This         And along the same lines, you do not want to get shingles (it can cause blindness + very painful) and the vaccine is incredibly effective.  And, FWIW, I'd be dead (twice) if it were not for antibiotics, or if I had waited to see "if it will run its course."  

When I was 19 I got a small cut in my forearm. I didn't think much of it since I'd had worse many times and it always healed in a few days. This time I woke up the next day with my arm swelled up like a balloon. Spent a week in the hospital on IV antibiotics. Before antibiotics became available I would have died or had my arm amputated. 

Lori Milaswrote:

“Touch and Go” looks pretty cool!  From a distance it’s hard to see, is this a stemming route or a foot and hand jam route?

It's a little bit of a few different techniques. Layback, stemming, jamming.
Steep and, as an old partner of mine would say, "continuously interesting."

I wanted to do that route in the first couple years I went to the Monument, but there was ALWAYS someone (or a bunch of someone's) on it. You could always see or hear them over there from Echo Rock. It wasn't until a bunch of years later, when trad climbing seemingly fell out of style, that I finally got on it. It did not disappoint. Great route!

Permabetawrote:

 Vitamin D has been touted as a panacea, though studies have shown benefit inconsistently. Still, it’s one of maybe two supplements that have shown any utility at all, yet everyone seems to take a half dozen unproven pills, often while simultaneously disparaging ”Big Pharma”.

And you’re right, there is variability to how much is enough. In Helen‘s case, her osteopenia shows she needs more, + weight bearing exercise. Population data suggests targeting levels between 30-40, but no more than 50-60, which may be harmful. Not sure how she’d feel that.

It doesn’t need to be taken with a ton of fat, only 10-15 g - a tablespoon of olive oil, quarter avocado,  or couple eggs will do.

Thanks! This is what I was looking for, just what needed to go down with the vit D. I'm taking 1 per day summer and 2 per day winter.....but the doc didn't really specify what was enough to be taken with it. They also didn't really say when it's "winter" vs "summer", actually, lol. But I'm not so concerned about that.

And yeah, really really gotta try to get the strength training in, plus aerobic. Running, if I can. Yes, that also pounds the knees, but I can live with the knees, since they are hanging in there pretty good.

I'm totally fine with vaccinations, and have had everything in recent years. Bitd? I never bothered with much of anything, including  an annual flu shot, cuz I never seemed to get sick. Ever. I personally know people who had polio, though, way back, and my mom had malaria. In the United States. I've personally been vaxxed for small pox....about 50 years ago. People are mostly too "young" to have any first hand knowledge, or even theoretical knowledge, of so many diseases that vaccines have largely made into a non issue here....

For now.

The strong antivax sentiments might not be as strong, if/when some of the ugly ones start showing up again, and it's your own loved one who gets taken out. And btw, don't get any dog bites. People are now extending their no vax views to pets, which is at the least kinda heartbreaking, to have our furballs die horrible deaths that are preventable, but with rabies?? That's extending your views into endangering everyone else's public health.

Anyway.

Other topic, farmer's market today. Cheery:

One of the new vendors!

Not so cheery:

Very sadly, there was also an extremely long line of people, many with small children, waiting in line for market tokens (how EBT gets used there, plus they multiply the value, to help people out).

It's beautiful here lately. Very very blue skies. And sun. So at least there's that.

Helen

A nice morning walk to Ruby Lake. 

Greg Oplandwrote:

It's a little bit of a few different techniques. Layback, stemming, jamming.
Steep and, as an old partner of mine would say, "continuously interesting."

I wanted to do that route in the first couple years I went to the Monument, but there was ALWAYS someone (or a bunch of someone's) on it. You could always see or hear them over there from Echo Rock. It wasn't until a bunch of years later, when trad climbing seemingly fell out of style, that I finally got on it. It did not disappoint. Great route!

Ditto that, Greg.  Great route.  Little bit of everything.

Yury wrote. “This text doesn't make sense.
Removal of her bladder, uterus, ovaries and appendix doesn't require ostomy.

Have you forgot to mention rectal cancer?”

I should have said urostomy.  She has worn a bag for urine ever since.  I’m not sure what consults she had before having everything removed.  She may have heard the word “cancer” and shut down after that.  I doubt that much discussion went into it since 33-40% of women over 55 have had a hysterectomy. It’s largely regarded as a useless organ.  (I totally disagree) it was the first thing mentioned to me in September “why not just get it out? You don’t need it.“

—-

Kris. Somehow I’m not surprised that you’ve had some MRIs with contrast. I thought you might have some experience with gadolinium. BTW I think it’s wonderful that you have a homeopathic doctor.  I think since what we are looking for in me is not an emergency and not life-threatening. I will either get an MRI without contrast or no MRI at all.  Just not worth the risk.  

—-

Greg, thank you so much for those great pictures! But I’m exhausted just looking at them.   Thanks for the up close of Touch and Go. 

—-

This morning I took a wonderful walk back to my favorite wall on Little Hunk.  It was so quiet back there, but I had a lot of time to just sit and reflect.  To think that once upon a time young strong dudes full of machismo and daring climbed all over this wall.  Kris Solem, Randy Vogel, Charles Cole, and of course, Bob Gaines put up one really long route straight up the middle (close as I could tell.)  it’s crazy to climb one of these routes on top rope and realize the danger of a fall if someone missed a step on the way to the first bolt.  Where have all the cowboys gone?  

So I’m not sure why I thought I should climb anything in that neighborhood but I had to try. I came really close to sending Torturers apprentice— couldn’t get through one or at most 2 moves at the crux.  If it all possible, I will back this year and complete that route.

Just getting to it takes a minute.  

Ryan pulling over a big ’shrund, North Couloir Direct, Mt Humphries, Sierra Nevada, California. 

Eric working his way up the North Arete, Bear Creek Spire.

Bill following “Sheila” Pine Creek, California.

Bill leading “Pratt’s Crack” Pine Creek, California. 

Eric on the North Buttress of Merriam Peak, Sierra Nevada, California.

Bill, “Welcome to the Dark Side” Little Egypt, California.

Denise, Haystack Mountain,Wind River Range, Wyoming.

A nameless miscreant lost in the middle of the Wyoming High Desert.

Daniel, how long have you known Bill? I had no idea that you were acquainted!

Over the many years I've done 17 week-long trips with him to climb in Joshua Tree (his count - kept inside the cover of his guidebook), and a lot of trips to Red Rocks too (not sure if he kept track of the number of times I joined him there).

Wow, small world.

Here he is with me in Josh. Note the same headband (but different jeans):