New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #39

Jan Mcwrote:

There is cause and effect and then there is assuming cause based on the effect.  THe first one is a reasonable assumption, the second is generally a fallacy.  It is far more realistic to assume that the lack of lithium is an effect than it is to assume it is a cause.

Wouldn’t mess with lithium (narrow therapeutic window, many toxicities), nor any of the so-called nootropics - none of them have good data, and they’re mostly poorly/unregulated nutraceuticals, so who knows what your getting.

As far as dementia goes, dragons summed it up pretty well. I think there’s something to keeping the mind active and challenged though.

Sleep is supposed to be really important for cleaning up all the protein gunk which can accumulate in our brains, especially in Alzheimer’s. Along those lines, there’s emerging interest in some of the newer sleep aids, dual orexin receptor antagonists, as anti-dementia drugs.

Greg Oplandwrote:

Tis the season for climbing at Granite Mountain near Prescott, AZ. Years ago, it was written up at one of the top ten places to climb in the country in Mountain Magazine. Lists like that are pretty subjective, but objectively it has overall excellent rock, lots of routes from easy to hard up to five pitches, and despite the five-star quality of the climbing, NO crowds. I was there couple days ago and I only saw two other parties the entire day. We had an unfortunate damper on the day that they'd had a rescue up there the day before. Don't know details, but they air-lifted a female climber out that they said fell 10-15 feet. It just happened to be the same route I was doing with my friend (and the same one I did with Brian in SLC in 2004). Judging by the blood in places over 2/3rds of the first pitch, she must've fallen, caught her foot on something, and I'd guess compound fracture. I ran into the SAR guys (this was the next morning) and one of them told me she was going to be okay. The blood freaked us out a little bit, but we managed to get it together and have a nice fall day of climbing.

Thanks for the pics and the memories, Greg. We climbed there back in the day and thought of it as a granite paradise, sort of a mini Yosemite. The rock is soooo good. I suppose maybe it’s the “long” approach along with it being a trad destination that keeps the crowds away. Fine with me! I’d love to get back there someday (and climb that first pitch of Magnolia Thunderpussy again—classic!). Enjoy!

DGoguenwrote:

The Presidentials are getting a little frosty today

Is that picture from Sugarloaf? Too bad it’s not peak foliage  

Buck and Al the picture from Sunday was taken from laughing lion in Evans notch. 

Dragons… re lithium. Your question sent me on a wonderful little reverie.  Eight or 10 years ago when I was working a little too hard I did some digging on lithium and wondered how I could optimize that mineral in a natural way.  It turned out that there was a mineral spring spa in Desert Hot Springs, not far from here, and they actually advertised the lithium content of their water. I decided to take a little vacation and see for myself .  

It was a wonderful getaway, and several times I spent days soaking in their grotto.  

If you ask them they will provide you with a copy of the most recent mineral analysis of the water.

It’s now kind of a destination place and people come from all over the world to soak in the water and drink the water and stay in luxury. It’s way too expensive for me now, but there are inexpensive places nearby that draw from the same aquifer and climbers go to soak away their sore muscles.

Around the same time, one of my favorite doctors wrote several articles on lithium (in microdoses) and he has always included a little bit of lithium in his essential minerals formula.  

having fun with hunting down natural sources of lithium, I discovered that San Pellegrino is a great source, I didn’t realize how many people drank it specifically for it’s lithium. I call it my “happy water“ – – whether it is or not doesn’t really matter to me. I like just knowing that I have a six pack of black cherry happy water in my pantry. It’s a reminder to me to. “don’t worry be happy”  

—-

I’m still mulling over brain health and cognition – – didn’t expect to be thinking about this just yet, but it has really hit me squarely. I really like the concept that at least part of mental decline may be because we are no longer compelled to use our brains the way we once were.

 I have been so perplexed about my good friend and what in the world has happened to her. She went to USC when I went to UCLA and we were always talking and debating and so interested in whatever we were each studying. I audited some of her classes and I thought, man! This is hard!  But we liked hard.

Over the years, especially as a retired person, she reads less and thinks less…. Along with being totally inactive and increasingly feeble the prospect of reading a newspaper or engaging with something difficult is just overwhelming.  I love her deeply but I miss her, too.  

So the question I didn’t know I should be asking is if you disengage from work and hard mental challenges what are you going to do instead to keep the brain plastic and healthy?  I love the question and really glad to be thinking about it now.

One brief answer is to “stay curious”.  

Lori Milaswrote:

...

 I have been so perplexed about my good friend and what in the world has happened to her. She went to USC when I went to UCLA and we were always talking and debating and so interested in whatever we were each studying. I audited some of her classes and I thought, man! This is hard!  But we liked hard.

Over the years, especially as a retired person, she reads less and thinks less…. Along with being totally inactive and increasingly feeble the prospect of reading a newspaper or engaging with something difficult is just overwhelming.  I love her deeply but I miss her, too.  

So the question I didn’t know I should be asking is if you disengage from work and hard mental challenges what are you going to do instead to keep the brain plastic and healthy?  I love the question and really glad to be thinking about it now.

One brief answer is to “stay curious”.  

I suppose it's possible that your friend has worsening dementia. Or might she actually be depressed? It seems common for people to become depressed with all the problems associated with aging. And for some, retirement means losing purpose.

Being totally inactive does sound like a recipe for disaster. It sounds like she needs physical activity more than anything else. Do you feel close enough to ask her about the changes that you see in her? Maybe there's something going on that she's aware of.

dragonswrote:

I suppose it's possible that your friend has worsening dementia. Or might she actually be depressed? It seems common for people to become depressed with all the problems associated with aging. And for some, retirement means losing purpose.

Being totally inactive does sound like a recipe for disaster. It sounds like she needs physical activity more than anything else. Do you feel close enough to ask her about the changes that you see in her? Maybe there's something going on that she's aware of.

I recall reading that only 70% of dementia is caused by Alzheimer's. A lot of the rest can be attributed to vascular problems like micro strokes, repeated concussions, etc. And physical activity reduces the chance of developing vascular issues. Alzheimer's also seems to be somewhat correlated with lifestyle but it has a huge genetic component.

dragonswrote:

I suppose it's possible that your friend has worsening dementia. Or might she actually be depressed? It seems common for people to become depressed with all the problems associated with aging. And for some, retirement means losing purpose.

Being totally inactive does sound like a recipe for disaster. It sounds like she needs physical activity more than anything else. Do you feel close enough to ask her about the changes that you see in her? Maybe there's something going on that she's aware of.

It’s hard to write about my friend without feeling disloyal. We still talk frequently. What I really think is that those qualities of staying engaged and curious were just never a priority.  She does not have dementia, but she has struggled with health issues for many years. She loves that I climb, but physical activity was never a priority. And I have to say when we were in our late teens, we did a lot of dumb stuff – – extreme diets, really didn’t have to be active because we were young and thin.  In other words, life did not require much effort. But my friend has a hard time walking to her mailbox these days and she’s OK with that.

I remember maybe 12 years ago when I was staying at her house for a couple of weeks she looked at me one day with tears in her eyes and said “but Hillary’s emails” and she had decided that no media, newspaper, news source could be trusted ever again.  She stopped reading everything and learned how to use her cell phone to access Facebook. And that was that.

We took that astronomy class together in 1973.  Music was everything at that time. Being somewhat politically engaged was just taken for granted.  Reading voraciously. Being interested in whatever was current. I couldn’t care less what her political affiliation is today… it’s just her withdrawal from…everything.

We had dinner with our three friends last night and I have to admit I’m pretty depressed this morning. They each almost casually said they were pretty done with living, One said he figured he’d be checking out within four years, won’t need his car anymore .. Not much left to do. Bags packed. (they’re giving all their stuff away.) and ready to go. I’m not sure I’m ready for them to go. 

phylp phylp wrote: "But the faith I put in the safety of the bolts may have been somewhat imagined. I have a vague recollection of the critical first bolt on Cantalope Death pulling at some point when some unfortunate fell there. I never kept notes on which routes I climbed in the Pinns, but the names of many of the ones on the east side sound familiar and I know I had a lot of good days there."

You've got pretty good recall about Pinnacles, phylp phylp.

However, the first bolt didn't fail on the route Cantalope of Death, it happened on Feed the Beast, the next route to the left. And it happened twice.

On both occasions, the bolt came unscrewed inside the hole from repeated falls and hangs on the 10-degree overhanging wall. This was a sleeve bolt, of the type that we used to call Rawl bolts, with the cone deep inside the hole.

But both events happened more than 20 years ago and all bolts on both of these routes were replaced long ago with deep glue-ins (the new gear was provided by ASCA, of course, and Greg Barnes himself did the work).

There's been a move to use glue-ins as replacements for bolts that see huge numbers of falls and hangs at the park, although there are still fewer than 100 glue-ins installed. I'm going down next week to work with Clint and his long partner Bruce to put glue-in replacements on a very popular 5.11a that Clint put up many years ago (tedious hand drilling will be required, naturally).

A huge, huge amount of other bolt replacement work has been done there in that amount of time. Between Clint and Bruce, another local named John and me and others, more than 600 old to ancient bolts have been replaced in that same time span with modern mechanical bolts.

Brad Youngwrote:

A huge, huge amount of other bolt replacement work has been done there in that amount of time. Between Clint and Bruce, another local named John and me and others, more than 600 old to ancient bolts have been replaced in that same time span with modern mechanical bolts.

Due to years of noise exposure, my tolerance for loud repetitive noise seems to be reduced. I’ve started using foam ear protection when hand drilling and it makes the work much more pleasant. It sounds like you and your friends do a ton more hammering than I do. Do you guys use any hearing pro?

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Due to years of noise exposure, my tolerance for loud repetitive noise seems to be reduced. I’ve started using foam ear protection when hand drilling and it makes the work much more pleasant. It sounds like you and your friends do a ton more hammering than I do. Do you guys use any hearing pro?

Daniel: mostly no.

Gavin the climbing ranger has pre-existing hearing loss and always uses earplugs. But I don't know of anyone else that does.

I'm either too dumb or too lazy (mostly the second one).

Even more critical perhaps is eye protection while hand drilling and I'm only recently getting to the point where I do that.

EDIT: Damn, Daniel, you're an inspiration. When I go down next week I'm absolutely going to take AND USE both eye and ear protection. I've got to get better at using both.

Brad Youngwrote:

Daniel: mostly no.

Gavin the climbing ranger has pre-existing hearing loss and always uses earplugs. But I don't know of anyone else that does.

I'm either too dumb or too lazy (mostly the second one).

Even more critical perhaps is eye protection while hand drilling and I'm only recently getting to the point where I do that.

EDIT: Damn, Daniel, you're an inspiration. When I go down next week I'm absolutely going to take AND USE both eye and ear protection. I've got to get better at using both.

Hey thanks Brad, the pro can save some suffering for sure. A friend got a tiny fleck of granite in his eye early on a backcountry trip that involved some hand drilling. Despite many attempts at flushing it out, we had to bail due to his obvious discomfort. Have fun out there.

Brad Youngwrote:

phylp phylp wrote: "But the faith I put in the safety of the bolts may have been somewhat imagined. I have a vague recollection of the critical first bolt on Cantalope Death pulling at some point when some unfortunate fell there. I never kept notes on which routes I climbed in the Pinns, but the names of many of the ones on the east side sound familiar and I know I had a lot of good days there."

However, the first bolt didn't fail on the route Cantalope of Death, it happened on Feed the Beast, the next route to the left. And it happened twice.

Ah! I knew it was in that area! I can't remember if I ever did Feed the Beast.  If I did it probably would have been with Clint or Barry B. If it was Clint, he has the log of it buried in his famous database somewhere.

 I'm going down next week to work with Clint and his long partner Bruce to put glue-in replacements on a very popular 5.11a that Clint put up many years ago (tedious hand drilling will be required, naturally).

A huge, huge amount of other bolt replacement work has been done there in that amount of time. Between Clint and Bruce, another local named John and me and others, more than 600 old to ancient bolts have been replaced in that same time span with modern mechanical bolts.

Thanks for the huge amount of work that you have done there and other places.  You are probably talking about Bruce H who is a very good guy and also contributes to the biking community. Clint was one of my first climbing partners and a great mentor, leading everything and showing me how to place gear, well before I would have called myself a partner. Of course he is legendary for the amount of bolt replacement he has done. In my mind he is most memorable for terrifying drives to the Valley in his old sports car which IIRC was a Datsun 280Z.

Here's one of my favorite photos of Clint, attempting road clearance work with improvised tools.  I think this may have been on the drive into BVC at Red Rock. Say hi for me, haven't see him in more than 10 years now.

Phyl

Brad Youngwrote:

There's been a move to use glue-ins as replacements for bolts that see huge numbers of falls and hangs at the park, although there are still fewer than 100 glue-ins installed. I'm going down next week to work with Clint and his long partner Bruce to put glue-in replacements on a very popular 5.11a that Clint put up many years ago (tedious hand drilling will be required, naturally).

I'm kind of curious. Any type of bolt that is used for climbing (and probably especially for a bolt that is frequently fallen on) will need replacement eventually. I've asked people who really think they're the greatest thing ever how exactly they can be replaced. I get some hand waving and something about heating them with a torch to soften the glue, but has anyone actually done testing to see if replacement is viable with glue-ins, or will the crags eventually just have ugly chiseled off bolts with a new hole/bolt next to them? 

phylp phylpwrote:

Ah! I knew it was in that area! I can't remember if I ever did Feed the Beast.  If I did it probably would have been with Clint or Barry B. If it was Clint, he has the log of it buried in his famous database somewhere.

Thanks for the huge amount of work that you have done there and other places.  You are probably talking about Bruce H who is a very good guy and also contributes to the biking community. Clint was one of my first climbing partners and a great mentor, leading everything and showing me how to place gear, well before I would have called myself a partner. Of course he is legendary for the amount of bolt replacement he has done. In my mind he is most memorable for terrifying drives to the Valley in his old sports car which IIRC was a Datsun 280Z.

Here's one of my favorite photos of Clint, attempting road clearance work with improvised tools.  I think this may have been on the drive into BVC at Red Rock. Say hi for me, haven't see him in more than 10 years now.

Phyl

I knew Clint in his undergrad days. Probably haven't seen him in about 50 years!!! Give him my regards as well.

Alan

Greg you can drill them out and put a new epoxy bolt in the same hole. I was a  Rumny a few weeks ago and watched some folks climb Ed's 5.9 my ass route at darth vader. Looked like the same burly glue ins from the 90s. they looked as good as new.  I do wonder about the new twist bolts with the 6mm stock lasting as long but I just bought a bunch of them. 

Alan Rubinwrote:

Give him my regards as well.

Alan

Also me! Haven't heard from him in years. Thanks

Bill Ivanoff

James Harvey wrote:

Bony Fingers direct slab start.

We’ve never even tried the .10 traverse start for what it’s worth.

Highly recommended if you are ever in Lone Pine!

Honestly one of the better crack climb in the state outside of the Valley.
I have only done the slab start - will take bolts over 10c R any day.

So back to the Pinns….. Best side? East West?

Any BLM camping close by?

edit I forgot Welcome to Pete S …. Spokane Climber… I believe you might be the first NW climber on here.
Fossil is from Oregon. Not the same at all I’m told. 

Guy Keeseewrote:

edit I forgot Welcome to Pete S …. Spokane Climber… I believe you might be the first NW climber on here.
Fossil is from Oregon. Not the same at all I’m told. 

Mark Webster posts up on here on occasion. He's from somewhere up in that neck of the woods, probably others lurking as well, but always nice to welcome new folks.

James Harvey wrote:

Bony Fingers direct slab start.

We’ve never even tried the .10 traverse start for what it’s worth.

Highly recommended if you are ever in Lone Pine!

I did the 10.c traverse start around 20 years ago. It's excellent as well. The last pitch, while not all that hard was pretty runout since it's long and takes close to the same size gear the whole way.  A few extra finger sized pieces would be helpful. Gary Slate RIP was one of the FA party and was actually a North Carolina boy who got started climbing at one of my local crags. He moved out west and put up a lot of routes in the Sierra.

Emil, are you any relation to Bill Briggs from the Tetons?