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Tips for multi pitch LRS
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Heya guys, Doing a lot of research (mostly reading me, myself and I and watching hownot2 vids) and having done lots of TRS, I recently got into the LRS game. So far I am pretty confident in my system, I use a few things to make it more secure, like the soft cinch maillon blocking device and those flexible backfeed protecters from the hownot2 store. I would really like to get into multipitch LRS, starting with some easy and relatively short (3-5 pitches routes, bolted stances). I have done my first 2 pitch route and the process of getting down from the anchor and back up cost me quite a lot of time. That is ok for me, I just started this learning progress but I would really appreciate to hear what you guys have implemented to make those transitions smoother. Anchor wise, I mostly use two maillons at the stances with an anti twist feature (the Edelrid one). A few questions that came up for me: - Do you top rope the pitch after cleaning or jumar up? I think top roping might be more efficient on the terrain I plan to start on (which is mostly slabby limestone with a lot of ledges, less than vertical). That is also how I did it on my first route. What devices do you like for doing that? The Grigri is already on the rope of course after rappeling but I don't like it for TRS. Also auto feeding generally seems to be a problem at least until half the pitch up, because the weight of my pretty thin rope is not enough to weight the rope end sufficiently. - Do you use a cache loop setup or do you climb with the rope in your pack and manage the cache with a micro trax or something similiar? I always used cache loops but found that in this kind of terrain, the loops can get caught annoyingly frequent on ledges, roots, protruding rocks and stuff. Thanks so much in advance! Moe |
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Following. I don't think anyone expects the grigri to auto feed on TRS. Haven't done multi pitch LRS yet but I don't see why you wouldn't just jumar it, especially since you can just leave your jumars at the anchor you're leading up from. Bringing two devices for proper TRS feels like a lot of extra faff unless you really want extra credit. You could use one device to TR and tie backup knots, but this is a problem in multi pitch since your rope will probably get stuck when you pull it up. Also I don't like the idea of TRSing something with toothed devices and not having a knot on the end of the rope at the very least. Certainly not with one device. No idea on the cached loop thing, last time I did something slabby the risk of them getting caught was high enough that I had to throw them over my shoulder which introduced all sorts of risks with tangling and such. Guess it depends on what grade you're climbing. I've read a lot of stories of people rope soloing in alpine terrain and haven't heard of anyone coming up with a better solution than just carrying a pack. If you're going to do difficult climbs that necessitate the cached loops, maybe all you can really do is avoid hard slab or terrain where you don't have enough extra energy to be very diligent in managing the loops and not getting them caught. |
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I find it protects my ego to TRS the pitch after i french the shit out of it on lead. Also just better fitness/more fun. 2x trax style devices, mini and micro for me right now. Unless u are doing something huge and needing to conserve energy, or need practice jugging, free while following. But ultimately, up to you! While LRSng you are the king, the judge, jury, and executioner. Just dont lie about it when you spray, and be realistic/share route with others.
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Rope Solo forum please! There just was a little pertinent discussion about this on a thread on the "Discuss mountain project forum" asking for a Rope solo forum: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/201808723/rope-solo-forum |
mountainhickwrote: I asked mtn project for a rope solo forum maybe 10 or 15 years ago. I guess their answer is obvious. |
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Jumaring the pitch is rarely more efficient. I rarely bring them. Always use two devices for TRS. My primary for LRS is also a good TRS device so I just need one microtrax, but on the rare occasions I use a grigri as my primary I still bring two devices, a camp lift and a spoc. Weighs hardly anything. If you're having difficulty with auto feeding during TRS on your skinny rope then get the two devices with the lowest friction. That would be the grand wall uAscend and the Spoc. I climb a lot of easy stuff and it's one of the reasons I dramatically prefer the backpack method. It works a LOT better on featured terrain. Also, you can pay out slack really really fast. If you get used to the backpack method you're not likely to go back to device managed cache loops. I think a lot of what people hate about LRS is fucking around with device managed cache loops as they are very time consuming to deal with, which super sucks on lead. The two options to get around it are the Brent Barghan pre cache method (which only works on very unfeatured terrain) or the backpack method (which works everywhere). |
Mike Gibsonwrote: Hmm, what might get results, activism or defeatism? Hey MP, please start us up a rope solo forum! |
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I think that your methods of LRS multi-pitch should be dictated to the terrain you climb. I almost always climb on granite and almost always have at least 2 cache loops hanging from my harness. I dont backpack because I find it makes routes harder when you climb with 8lbs on your back. I think easier limestone climbing would lend itself to the backpack method, however that would be not be advisable on steep limestone routes! The method of cleaning your route should again be dictated by the terrain you are climbing. For steeper or harder routes you might want to jumar, which is at least twice as efficient as climbing in steep terrain. I usually just fix and follow with my TRS rig on routes up to 600' because it feels like a good level of challenge. On routes 800'+ jumaring is going to make a big difference in your energy use. I have climbed very similar alpine routes using both methods and am much fresher at the end of the days I follow on jumar. For lower angle terrain you will likely find that fix and follow is preferred because its more fun and more comparable efficiency wise. You also need to take a lot more time protecting your rope from abrasion if you plan to jumar. In general I find that the most efficient way to start multi-pitch climbing is to bring a rope long enough to do your longest pitch on the route. You don't want to be climbing with a lot of extra rope you are not using. Once you gain more experience you can start experimenting with linking up pitches to continue to push for full rope length pitches. Similar to climbing with a partner, its generally more efficient to climb larger routes in the least amount of pitches possible. Because we don't have rope drag we have a beautiful bank of extra energy at the end of a long pitch...hopefully. Make sure you use your backfeed widgets! |
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It can be nice to link pitches since we don't have rope drag, but it's also nice to rap a clean line if you end up using less than half your rope. Be mindful of backfeeding when linking pitches since you have less rope weight on your brake strand. I tend to TRS to get back up since I like climbing. I use my standard TRS kit since it's only one more piece of kit compared to my LRS setup. A big thing I learned with aid soloing is to clean on the way up, not the way down. No need to bring the gear down just to bring it back up to the next pitch. For the same reason it can be nice to use a gear sling and leave it at the top anchor (or the end of your fixed line for easy TRS feeding). Clean onto another sling then transfer the smaller sling to the larger one when you arrive at the anchor. Nice rope bags are clutch if you use a single cache loop. I keep the rope at the anchor and adjust a single cache loop as I climb. When using bolted anchors you can often use something like a Portuguese bowline to eliminate carabiners and the threat of crossloading or coming unclipped. If you tie it at the end of the rope you can use the same setup for rappelling, TRS, and LRS for the next pitch. Obviously all of this depends on the hangers and anchor configuration. |
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Thank you very much for all your helpful comments, I really appreciate it! I did my first 5 pitch route yesterday in LRS style, trying out the backpack method and it worked quite well. It was fourth to upper fourth grade terrain, so the climbing was not very strenous and the pack was not an issue weight wise. I found it a bit tough though to get the rope bucket (got an Edelrid one in 30l) in my haulbag along with all my other stuff - which system do you use for packing? Granted this is only really an issue for approaching, since when starting to climb, you can always just take the rope bucket with you and leave the main pack on the ground. On this sort of mellow terrain I felt good TRSing the pitches after cleaning, I also linked 2 pitches together as I went which makes for a nice long TRS ascent afterwards where you can be a bit more cheeky with your climbing. I love LRS and the whole new dimension of climbing it offers. I still felt a bit scared here and there because it was a rather alpine route with few bolts and realtively difficult orientation and being on your own is definitely something else. Have a great weekend everyone! |
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Instead of a dedicated rope bag, on climbs without big ledges to stack the rope, if you have a fairly large pack and are careful with stacking it, I sometimes flake it into my backpack and attach that to the anchor, which I've had mixed success with. If its big and the opening stays open and is pretty wide it's worked well enough. One other thing I've been experimenting with is using a big ikea bag instead of a dedicated rope bag, with a piece of sturdy cardboard at the bottom and a pvc pipe that I've made some holes in act as a spreader bar to keep it open. Essentially cut the pipe so it's a little wider than the bag, drill a hole through the middle of the pipe, (maybe a little offset to one side?), and then screw some hooks or screws into the top on each side, so you can slide the handles of the bag in from the top, but the handles can't move left or right. through the hole in the middle, tie some cord which will be the main attachment point to the anchor. If you offset this hole a little to one side it might sit better against the wall if it isn't super steep but I haven't tried this, and it might flip around in some weird ways. From there you can flake your rope in and use it like a rope bag, just be mindful about how the rope will leave the bag since it can get tangled around the pipe. It's worked fairly well for me on steep routes where the bag can sit in air, but I've found that on slabbier climbs the bag can sit weird on the rock. The cardboard also is a little too flimsy, I think a sheet of acrylic or plastic with the corners sanded down might work fairly well as well. The big advantage of this is that it packs up a little nicer, since the ikea bag takes up like no space once its crushed up, the pipe can be strapped to the side or back of your pack kind of like a picket, and the sheet of cardboard or something rigid can be slid in your pack vertically. My big concern with rope bags for LRS is that if you attach it to your anchor, if you fall, it could pull the bag up and potentially break it. You can attach it directly to a bolt if its a bolted anchor or to a piece if its a gear anchor (as long as that piece is multidirectional Some other general tips for LRS Multis - (mostly for trad climbing but some might be applicable on sport routes) - If the climbing is not very hard and not super steep, your system doesn't involve a chest harness, I like racking my cams and nuts on a sling. This way, once you get to the top of the pitch, you can drop off the heavy gear that you don't need and leave it at the anchor so you don't need to pull it up with you or spend a bunch of time taking the gear off your harness and then reracking. - Linking pitches is a really good idea as long as you make sure to combat the rope weight to prevent backfeed. In my experience saves time since you cut down on the amount of transitions, and rope drag isn't an issue most of the time. Just remember to tie a stopper knot so you don't go off the end of your rope. - I would strongly recommend that, once you get to the top of the pitch and fix the rope, to rappel on the strand that you just climbed on. This way you cam do long pitches and not have to worry if you have enough rope, you can't rappel off the end of the rope since it is fixed at the bottom too, and if the pitch traverses you can pull on the bottom strand to pull you into the anchor. Make sure to give some extra slack on that strand so that you have some extra rope to work with should you need it, and can weigh down the rope if you are going to TRS. The big downside of this is that you might need to clean gear on the way down, or unclip and then reclip once you are below it. - Getting into a routine of checking your system is a good idea for all rope soloing, but especially for this, since you will probably get pretty fatigued if the route is long, and LRS systems tend to be fairly complex. Big things are making sure that you are attached to the correct strand, that the device is set up correctly, that your system is closed, etc. One way to do this is to treat it almost like a rappel, so weight the system while still being attached to the anchor with a PAS. Having a strict order in which you do things will also help, as will only focusing on one thing at a time. For example, fixing the end of the rope to the anchor, putting your main device on the rope, then your cache loop, then pull the rope up while tying backup knots, then double check everything and then start to climb. - One big thing that I tend to do is that I don't eat or drink while climbing unless someone else tells me to. For me, setting points before the climb as to where I would do things (think eat a snack and drink some water every hour) help me remember to actually do that. |
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One small detail to keep in mind when hanging the pack and flaking the excess rope into it, make sure your snacks are in a separate, zippered compartment, or in a heavy duty (NOT ziplock) bag... out here in the Valley we have fairly aggressive ravens (apparently Dean Potter is hungry as heck) and they will make you pay for mistakes. I once did this flake method into a Creek20, thinking "oh my food is all at the bottom and covered by the rope, those ravens can't get my food." Whelp, I forgot that the rope won't be there once I hit the top of the pitch and have now pulled all the rope out of the bag. Whoops. Ravens scored my sealed bag of pistachios and went to town. I rapped down as fast as possible and fortunately salvaged the bag but felt really stupid for not thinking it all the way through. Now I only carry bars in my chalkbag or make sure any food is in a separate, zippered compartment. |
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I've done both easy 5.7 multis and zodiac LRS. Ironically, soloing el cap feels much more solid. When aid soloing, I love the clove hitch for tricky and technical terrain when you're moving slow anyways. I've taken two LRS falls on el cap so far and my two anti cross loading carabiners make the clove hitch easy to untie. But I am not very happy with my free climbing system. I currently use an atc in guide mode with the rope feeding from a backpack with byte knots as a backup. I have used a chest harness to lift up the locker on the atc to allow the rope to feed, but don't think this will work for an inverted fall. Without the chest harness I feel much more solid and slack isnt too hard to feed out. Since I am on easy terrain, I don't think the cache loops would work well and don't want to pull back up loops up out of a bucket for fear they will get caught on features, but am not hindered by climbing with a decent weight pack. On free climbs I almost never free climb to follow, I'll just pull up on the rope since I already lead the pitch anyways. The system Brent showcases in HN2 seems better for steeper red point climbing. I've borrowed a partners draws with the pinches for tensioning the rope and they worked poorly but may have been installed wrong. Ultimately I'll be keeping an eye on this thread and am excited to try a new system in Red Rocks this Winter. |
Bailey Moorewrote: I've tested that system with an atc guide, and the ropes will invert. I'm not very large (135 lbs), and even with a thick rope, one fall would jam the device, and if I took a larger fall the ropes would swap places, and it would fail. Also, once it got jammed, it was hard to unjam, and sometimes I would unjam it backwards and the ropes would switch places anyways. I imagine a thinner rope (under 10 mm) would be much worse. An ATC alpine guide might not do it, or maybe a reverso since I feel like the slots are a little narrower. As for the snacks in the bag, Honestly if your flaking the rope into a bag I don't like to keep anything light (like a phone or wallet or keys or snacks) in the main pocket since it feels like they could get tangled in the rope somehow and pulled out of the pack as you pull rope up. It's probably not very likely to happen though. |
Bailey Moorewrote:When aid soloing, I love the clove hitch… I never wrote it up for the ANAC or anything, but that time I was aid soloing and my piece pulled while I was feeding slack through the clove, and it came tight on my thumb and ring finger really sucked. Broken bones, partial amputation, 0/10 do not recommend. |
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Tech Tip for multi-pitch. It’s best if you do not integrate your rope into your anchors while LRS climbing multi pitch routes in my experience. After finishing cleaning a pitch you will likely want to restack your rope in a bag or backpack before starting up the next pitch. If you have integrated your rope into your anchor, you will have to pull up all your rope to start stacking the other end in the bottom of your bag. If you build the anchor with slings/cord all you need to do is swap the end. So you can put your rope on a micro traction, untie it from the anchor, and start stacking the top of the rope in the bottom of your bag. Once stacked, tie your new anchor knot, swap the Micro from the anchor back to your cache loop, add your belay device, and you are ready for the next pitch. |
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I have an alternative opinion about rope anchors. Multipitch LRS with gear anchors is a system I'd like to refine more, so I'm very open to hearing what others do. I have accepted that I will build a whole new anchor once I arrive with the entire rack. To fix and rap I only need two good cams (downwards pull), and that's very fast to do with two alpine butterflies (or whatever). Once I have the whole rack again, I can place ideal pieces for the next pitch for an upwards pull. I go into the cams with a personal tether (set up with two non-lockers; one to each cam), stack rope in pack or rope bag, fix end of rope to new anchor with a series of loop knots. Generally at least one of the original cams stays part of the anchor, but I find the rebulding is faster than trying to get it all perfect with a limited rack at the end of the lead (when you don't even require the upwards pull gear yet). My "anchor kit" is two wire gate carabiners. I double up with my racking carabiners for key pieces, or have them for nuts/fixed gear at anchors. If it's bolted anchors I'll throw in one locker and use one of my microtrax lockers for the second bolt. Also, tip #1 from me, Totem cams for the anchor! Basically can shove two in a crack and it's realistically good for any direction of pull. For those who jug to follow, are you wearing comfy rock shoes all day, or switching to approach shoes? +1 for following on TRS. As mentioned above, one of the beauties of LRS is the opportunity to get an instant do-over, this time with a top rope. So much more fun than having to belay. |
J Cwrote: JC, I often do the same with building basically 2 anchors. I suppose it might be better to say don't use your rope in the building of your upper anchor, because if you do you are definitely going to want to rebuild the whole thing. I think rebuilding anchors can be a big time suck on a long route, so I almost always just add to my first anchor. So as long as you build your upper anchor for your rap with a sling, you can then unclip and put the other end of the rope directly into the lower upwards facing pieces, even using the rope with a bunny ears knot or whatever at that point and cinching it tight to the upper downwards pull anchor with a clove. I usually only bring four 30" runners and one 90" or a 18' mini cordalette on most all routes. 4-6 soft cinch quickdraws, and spare carabiners depending on how long the pitches are. Changing shoes mid route can be funny business. I usually let my feet make the decision, but I try to do a couple pitches before I start changing out my shoes if I'm on something more moderate. It's also a big time suck to swap shoes, and I find it rather scary sometimes thinking about loosing one of your approach shoes mid route on an alpine climb 8 miles from the car. I'm often frustrated at myself when I realize I left my approach shoes clipped to my harness during the whole lead and descent back to my lower anchor. Nothing like wasted effort while rope soloing! Luv it so much you climb it twice. |
