Indian Creek dirtbagging is dead

Iz K wrote:

How many more ways can we repeat the same view points? 

Someone already said that.

The only difference here is time.

Which is relative.

X Foliatorwrote:

The only difference here is time.

Which is relative.

Dang, throwing some shade at the dude with the horns. Just cause he looks well-fed doesn’t mean he’s a “soft man.”

Besides, everyone knows the cliff wall adds 10 pounds.

Sep Mwrote:

Dang, throwing some shade at the dude with the horns. Just cause he looks well-fed doesn’t mean he’s a “soft man.”

Besides, everyone knows the cliff wall adds 10 pounds.

Oof. At my peak climbing era I worked my way down to 185. Currently sitting at 240. I am the horned dude

X Foliatorwrote:

The only difference here is time.

Which is relative.

I don't know if it's a good idea to start comparing symbols, this is like comparing apples to Chevrolets. Time is definitely not the only difference between these.

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

Pretty sure there is a difference between written text carved into the rock (illegal and offensive) and climbing (entirely legal other than some restrictions on bolting and tools).

The problem is that not everyone (ie Land Managers and our Indigenous allies) feels the same way about our graffiti. It's illegal for a reason and it endangers our access.

If that is in fact the case, the answer is easy and I have given it to the community: Smash them to crumbs, scrape them off, carry them away or flip them over. Not a big deal and easy to solve. Get to work Hillbilly.

A compromise is to flip them over at the base of obvious cracks and leave them in an obvious spot. Climbers arrive at an unknown crack and look at the obvious spot at the base and see what is probably a flake there leaning up against the base of the crack. They can then flip it over and see what they need to see. When they leave flip it back over. This way the non climber or land manager or indigenous person who doesn't care about climbers doesn't see anything glaring in their face. So much for the plaque issue.

Back to the issue at hand… dirt bagging in wilderness areas is definitely not what it was back in the day, or what I envision from having watched valley uprising and other climbings flicks, or what others were lucky enough to have lived and climbed during that era.. It was truly the Wild West out there and park rangers were taken about as seriously as mall cops, but there were only a couple dozen people romping around.

The scale has shifted to hundreds and thousands. Dirt bagging isn’t dead, it’s just truncated. If this many people were running around like they were back then, we would most definitely lose access to these places. Land managers have to put a cap on visitations and their only way to do that is broad sweeping policy for everyone. Such is the issue with public policy of all forms. There’s always grey area that’s going to chap someone’s ass, or affect people who maybe don’t need to be the ones being policed.

Also DF is the funkin’ man, he clearly made a mistake he is paying for, but will be back in no time. There’s a lot of bold keyboard warriors that wouldn’t have shit to say to his face, and gluttonously will climb his routes and updated Hardwear without any intent to contribute themselves. Pass a little less judgment, and hope people show empathy and kindness to you when you make a mistake in your life.

When you clip old anchor bolts there this fall, ask yourself who will replace them. To my knowledge, there are no formal bolt replacement or climbing hardware efforts ongoing at Indian Creek. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

IC bad bolt report from: https://forms.gle/fT4iqTxum9ziWaAn8

There's also a group out of Durango mostly that does a bunch of ID and replacement. Also other locals that replace bad bolts when they find them. Also regular visitors that do bolt replacements, fix anchors, trails, etc. Ancestral lands crews have been pretty committed to trail repairs with several trips in the spring and summer. Plenty of people that were adding new routes, trundling bad rock during off season when no ones around, pulling noxious weeds before they spread all over the creek, etc. BLM is doing what they can with all one of their people. Front Range club does trail and rebolting efforts, recently redoing anchors on an entire crag. I don't know how many are noting it on instagram but it happens very regularly. Just wanted to give a shout out to all of you who are doing what you can out there, we appreciate you.

X Foliatorwrote:

The only difference here is time.

Which is relative.

Not even close.

Trite graffiti by chimps versus sacred art are not the same.

I'm embarrassed to be a climber when I see such cultural arrogance and ignorance.

Next you will equate "Joe loves Mary" carved into a tree with the Sistine Chapel and say that the only difference is age.

What a fun thread.

1. Before the monument anyone was allowed to take 25lbs + 1 (50lbs) of rock from the BLM land in Indian Creek. This meant that making small plaques on small rocks was not illegal. Happy to be proven wrong here if there is a law or case that hillbilly wants to find. This was my understanding from my relationship with local BLM employees. I am not sure of the status post-monument.

2. There are plenty of ways to camp in the area moving between different land management agency lands that would allow you to stay more than 14 days in the IC area. You just gotta move.

3. Bolt replacement is ongoing and very needed, buts it’s not some randos, it’s generally highly organized and mostly done by a group from Durango as BK pointed out.

4. Have always gotten along with Devin in person, have had some minor disagreements on the internet regarding some poorly placed bolts. Which in the end he did remedy. His work in IC is prolific and I have climbed dozens of his routes. He is bold and visionary and has been for 30 years. I appreciate everything he has done for IC and will likely continue to do. He’s the Chongo Chuck of Indian Creek. Also Super Crack and Battle are mostly on private property and he has free passage through IC so I imagine he can still climb there? Not sure on the exact rules to be followed.

5. From what I understand we are no longer supposed to refer to petroglyphs and pictographs as “art” because actually do not understand the intent behind the carvings and drawing.

6. Cowboy camps that are 50 years or older are classified as arch sites if they meet specific size requirements. Does that mean that in 5 years Steve Hongs plaques from 1980 will become isolated finds and are classifiable?

Thank you Bolting Karen! I love reading this. Thank you to all who steward and take care of the many places we love. I challenge everyone to show up for trail building events, reach out to your local bolt replacement teams and be ready to learn & buy tools, find a consistent way to show up for climbing and to give back, do it with your wallet if that’s what you can do. 

Devin Finn is like the Nickleback of climbing Instagram, all his posts tend to be the same thing over and over and yet I still find myself watching them.

Bolting Karenwrote:

I don't know if it's a good idea to start comparing symbols, this is like comparing apples to Chevrolets. Time is definitely not the only difference between these.

Thanks for saying this, I was going to, but figured I would just be opening myself up to some roasting, lol.

They are not remotely the same, as the petroglyphs probably represented something deeply important or ceremonial in  nature, according to most oral traditions and archaeological research. The petroglyphs are also federally protected by the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979. I am not sure if anyone has proposed similar legislation for protecting scratched route names on stone plaques yet. 

Not a statement against the plaques either, I’m indifferent to their existence, or lack of existence, but I do think to compare/equate them to petroglyphs, or prehistoric rock imagery is a bit of a stretch.

X Foliatorwrote:

The only difference here is time.

Which is relative.

The only difference is....The indigenous Peoples lived there,it was part of them..All you graduates of Climbing Gyms return to houses in Santa Barbara,and Compton.....I'm so glad I had my Time,climbing,and don't have to deal with all this Bullshit nowdays('"Community"stewardship",Ego-driven Development(200 routes on a Wall.So many variations you need to carve instructions into the Rock.It's a wonder their Names are'nt carved in  also....Killroy was here.

grug gwrote:

What's your concern with his Instagram posts? He obviously isn't in it for money. 

He's like that wacko that climbs barefoot,and lives in a Rat Cave.Soon,he too will be selling his "Art"(remenents of Plaques broken up by the old School climbers(like me)....

So glad I don't climb anymore.

Climbings still great. Young people are navigating challenging times.

Ken Phillipswrote:

So glad I don't climb anymore.

So you just jumped on this thread to talk shit about someone I'm assuming you don't know, about a place you don't spend time at, about a community you presumably contribute nothing to, about a semi-niche sport you don't even participate in anymore? I think you need a hobby Mr. Ken somebody. 

Who reported Devin? Adventure Sam?

Don’t let the door hit ya on your way out ken

- the climbing community