Tuolumne Bolt Chopping

American Chopperwrote:

It’s interesting that the route was established by a certain someone who just released a guidebook.  Perhaps said author spent the last couple years in Tuolumne, putting up BS routes for filler for their new guidebook? 

there's a new Tuolumne guidebook coming out? I haven't seen anything on the internet about that.

American Chopperwrote:

OK fair - it’s 2025. But isn’t what makes TM special is the history it holds?

No

 a lot of trolls on this tread. I found that Natali and Elaine have same tick list  which mean that it is probably the same person with opposing posts on this tread

Jay Crewwrote:

there's a new Tuolumne guidebook coming out? I haven't seen anything on the internet about that.

I can no longer tell who is being serious here.

Marc801 Cwrote:

I can no longer tell who is being serious here.

I find the walk-off casual, if that helps. 

Alexey Zelditchwrote:

 a lot of trolls on this tread. I found that Natali and Elaine have same tick list  which mean that it is probably the same person with opposing posts on this tread

^^^

Alexey - a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Be careful with your words.

They're not the same person. I've climbed with each of them, together and separately. Each is a younger climber (by my geezer standards) who gives a shit about the rock and the routes. Natalie in particular has done first ascents with me, drilling bolts by hand, on lead, and on lead using a mechanical drill (where allowed). Have you had anything near that level of involvement yourself?

And have the courtesy to spell names correctly if you want to preserve even a tiny shred of credibility.

Jay Crewwrote:

there's a new Tuolumne guidebook coming out? I haven't seen anything on the internet about that.

https://tuolumneguide.com/

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/201541897/new-tuolumne-guide-update

American Chopperwrote:

I guess BS in terms that it doesn’t match the cliff, or the area for that matter.

Didn’t match the 5-6 other 5.6-5.7 routes within 150-200ft?

  I don’t know.  Ive just see a lot of new routes that have been put up throughout the years by the author, and it hasn’t rubbed everyone the right way.

And that’s exactly the point. If there’s routes that sucked, feel free to chop (I guess, if that’s your jam in life). These did not suck, by frickin landslide of public opinion/support. By not chopping routes that could be quibbled with, and chopping the good/popular ones, chopper confirms his asshat status.

Matt N wrote: I find the walk-off casual, if that helps.

We all do, matt. “We,” are not the point of these two routes. I totally understand the republican “do it yourself” mentality and hating the liberal idea of giving a little help to people who might not have our same skills… but sometimes it is ok to spread the opportunity a little bit, even in the climbing world.

Brad Youngwrote:

^^^

Alexey - a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Be careful with your words.

They're not the same person. I've climbed with each of them, together and separately. Each is a younger climber (by my geezer standards) who gives a shit about the rock and the routes. Natalie in particular has done first ascents with me, drilling bolts by hand, on lead, and on lead using a mechanical drill (where allowed). Have you had anything near that level of involvement yourself?

And have the courtesy to spell names correctly if you want to preserve even a tiny shred of credibility.

Natalie and Elaine,  I apologize for my wrong conclusion.  

Zay in Monterey wrote:

Dear Christian, 

Please lock this thread; its nothing more than a microcosym of everything wrong with this forum. It's going nowhere. The snarky squabbling and vitriol is lame as fuck. 

Hope you are well,

Zay

Then maybe stop reading the thread? It's totally in your control.

Son?!???!

Who let you out of the Utah forums!!!

I’m sorry folks.  My son, Marc, likes to roam around the forums throwing quick one liners.  He is on the spectrum and we try to keep him locked up in the General climbing or Utah area forums.  Not sure how  that buggger got out…..

I’ll be following your progress son.  You better behave or else…..

Marc's Dadwrote:

Son?!???!

Who let you out of the Utah forums!!!

I’m sorry folks.  My son, Marc, likes to roam around the forums throwing quick one liners.  He is on the spectrum and we try to keep him locked up in the General climbing or Utah area forums.  Not sure how  that buggger got out…..

I’ll be following your progress son.  You better behave or else…..

Sorry, Dad. I started climbing before 5.11 was an acknowledged grade. I now have little patience with climbers who started climbing after the pandemic and think they're experts at everything. And some comments really don't need more than a quick one-liner.

You are free to replace or add bolts to the route in question or any other route of your choosing.

I have climbed features where I placed bolts for protection. I have made it publicly known that i make no claim of ownership to any climb I did. Climbers are free to add to or chop any route I have climbed.

I have never felt compelled to alter any route.

The first ascent principle, as described by Royal Robbins, is NOT about ownership of any climb. It's a simple way to have an agreed upon standard (by most people who have thought it through) to maintain the challenge and respect in climbing, by typically leaving climbs as the FA did them. Without it (and some countries are like this) it's a free for all. e.g. Classic trad climb? Nah, let's sport bolt it. 

There are exceptions. For example: the FA says it's okay to add bolts (maybe they just ran out of time/money). Or the active climber community realizes a climb where the FA is no longer around has a bolt in a bad place, and they remove it and put in a new one where it works better.

And as Royal described it goes both ways. Don't add bolts to a climb you didn't establish and don't remove bolts either. 

The anonymous choppers likely just see it as black and white. Bolts bad! Or they are elitist and think bolts are okay on climbs that challenge them but not for easier climbs. Who was that ginger guy here who was banned who was so anti bolt? I tried to get him to explain specifically what negative impact a bolt has and of course he couldn't do it.

Gloweringwrote:

The first ascent principle, as described by Royal Robbins, is NOT about ownership of any climb. It's a simple way to have an agreed upon standard (by most people who have thought it through) to maintain the challenge and respect in climbing, by typically leaving climbs as the FA did them. Without it (and some countries are like this) it's a free for all. e.g. Classic trad climb? Nah, let's sport bolt it. 

There are exceptions. For example: the FA says it's okay to add bolts (maybe they just ran out of time/money). Or the active climber community realizes a climb where the FA is no longer around has a bolt in a bad place, and they remove it and put in a new one where it works better.

And as Royal described it goes both ways. Don't add bolts to a climb you didn't establish and don't remove bolts either. 

The anonymous choppers likely just see it as black and white. Bolts bad! Or they are elitist and think bolts are okay on climbs that challenge them but not for easier climbs. Who was that ginger guy here who was banned who was so anti bolt? I tried to get him to explain specifically what negative impact a bolt has and of course he couldn't do it.

Where does convenience fall on your scale of exceptions? The Salathe Wall was established using 13 bolts, now there are probably 100. Did Royal say this is okay? When routes can‘t be casually rapped it requires a level of commitment and proficiency to climb them. Fixed belays and ease of retreat always leads to crowds. Why do pristine mountains need established bolted raps when there is often a fun and scenic scramble off? Climbers spray about preservation but often take the lame easy way out.

I actually believe the first ascent principle is a valid concept but have witnessed so much bullshit over the years (usually by elites and community leaders and guidebook compilers) that I now advocate for all climbers to follow their own path. 

Terry Ewrote:

https://tuolumneguide.com/

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/201541897/new-tuolumne-guide-update

Thanks, I missed the 20 different threads on mtn project and all the facebook group spamming

Alexey Zelditchwrote:

Natalie and Elaine,  I apologize for my wrong conclusion.  

Thanks Alexey? Though, I would like to clarify, we have the same ticks for those 3 days because we were climbing together... I even wrote "climbed with Natalie" in most of the ticks

And thank you for clarifying Brad.

When I have the time I'll respond to the other people who quoted my last post. This thread has been rather upsetting to me because I was impacted by the Aoxomoxoa anchors being chopped. I had climbed Jonah with another of my partners with the plan to rap Aoxomoxoa and we were not comfortable with the walkoff. We specifically chose it because the most up to date info we had said we could rap and neither of us had lead anything on gear in quite a long time and just wanted something easy to do before heading home early. And one of the things we talked about as we were walking off (after leaving gear on Jonah to get down) was the potential that that missing rap anchor could kill someone, and I still firmly believe that that potential still exists.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Where does convenience fall on your scale of exceptions? The Salathe Wall was established using 13 bolts, now there are probably 100. Did Royal say this is okay? When routes can‘t be casually rapped it requires a level of commitment and proficiency to climb them. Fixed belays and ease of retreat always leads to crowds. Why do pristine mountains need established bolted raps when there is often a fun and scenic scramble off? Climbers spray about preservation but often take the lame easy way out.

I actually believe the first ascent principle is a valid concept but have witnessed so much bullshit over the years (usually by elites and community leaders and guidebook compilers) that I now advocate for all climbers to follow their own path. 

The devil is in the details, and it's a case by case basis IMO. Personally I'm definitely against bolts in the middle of a pitch to make it less challenging. But bolted anchors on a big wall I may be okay with. Yes fixed belays can lead to more climbers, but the Salathe is now a very popular free climbing goal. It's going to be crowded regardless and I'd rather it be safer and equipped to handle more people easily. But a hard big wall climb that is still a difficult aid climb I'd be much more against bolted belays. Another example is the summit of Cathedral Peak. Years ago the summit was bolted to make rapping off easier and the bolts were quickly chopped. In my opinion those absolutely should not be there, since  it was first done by John Muir with sheepherder boots in the 1800s and you can easily protect getting off the summit while downclimbing. 

What are climbers preserving? I don't have an issue with a lot of bolted raps, and they can result in less environmental impact than hiking (really in evidence at the Gunks). Another example is Royal Arches. I've done the hike and I've done the raps. I don't think the bolts on that face are causing any significant environment impact and I'll almost always do the raps because it's far more direct and the north dome gully has some pretty badly eroding sections.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Where does convenience fall on your scale of exceptions? The Salathe Wall was established using 13 bolts, now there are probably 100. Did Royal say this is okay? When routes can‘t be casually rapped it requires a level of commitment and proficiency to climb them. Fixed belays and ease of retreat always leads to crowds. Why do pristine mountains need established bolted raps when there is often a fun and scenic scramble off? Climbers spray about preservation but often take the lame easy way out.

I actually believe the first ascent principle is a valid concept but have witnessed so much bullshit over the years (usually by elites and community leaders and guidebook compilers) that I now advocate for all climbers to follow their own path. 

The frustration in this thread is that no one is chopping the salathe bolts. They are chopping a 5.6.

Clearly the chopper has no moral fortitude nor pride in their work as they did the easiest job possible, poorly, and with no consistency.

This is not a pristine mountain, there is a pitch called the motherloving boltway and they didn't chop that.

Gloweringwrote:

The devil is in the details, and it's a case by case basis IMO. Personally I'm definitely against bolts in the middle of a pitch to make it less challenging. But bolted anchors on a big wall I may be okay with. Yes fixed belays can lead to more climbers, but the Salathe is now a very popular free climbing goal. It's going to be crowded regardless and I'd rather it be safer and equipped to handle more people easily. But a hard big wall climb that is still a difficult aid climb I'd be much more against bolted belays. Another example is the summit of Cathedral Peak. Years ago the summit was bolted to make rapping off easier and the bolts were quickly chopped. In my opinion those absolutely should not be there, since  it was first done by John Muir with sheepherder boots in the 1800s and you can easily protect getting off the summit while downclimbing. 

What are climbers preserving? I don't have an issue with a lot of bolted raps, and they can result in less environmental impact than hiking (really in evidence at the Gunks). Another example is Royal Arches. I've done the hike and I've done the raps. I don't think the bolts on that face are causing any significant environment impact and I'll almost always do the raps because it's far more direct and the north dome gully has some pretty badly eroding sections.

I’d speculate that the Salathe is a popular free objective due to the bolted belays and ease of top down rehearsal. 

As far as preserving, at least for me, a climb up in the mountains, knowing that my partner and I are responsible for route finding and gear management and understanding that past a certain point we may not have enough gear for retreat, is a much different experience than having fixed belays and no commitment. Once convenience and “safety” enter the equation, the crowds show up and impact is magnified. I want to preserve the possibility for self discovery and adventure and solitude in wild places. Not all climbs are or should be for all climbers.

As far as crags and roadside climbing, I agree that bolted raps can be the best option. It’s the slippery slope that leads to expecting “safety” and convenience in all settings is where the conflicts arise for me.