Tuolumne Bolt Chopping

Marsha Langherwrote:

It is good to see that there are still climbers who respect the clean climbing ethos.

Also of note, it's seems this troll and the chopper don't really understand the clean climbing ethos. They are thinking about it on the surface and haven't examined what it means or why we do it. Clean climbing is about deterioration of the rock (hence moving from pitons to chocks) and deterioration of the adventure inherent in the experience. The chopped routes are OBVIOUSLY for novice climbers to start getting experience with the adventure of it (it could be a thrilling lead for a novice). They don't detract from the adventure of the 1,000+ other climbs in Tuolumne you can do. The bolts created no significant environmental impact to anyone or anything, and the shitty chop job is a worse impact than the bolts. The choppers didn't chop other climbs in Tuolumne that have just as many bolts. They chopped it because it was easy to access and chop, because the climbing was easy FOR THEM, and because their egos drove them to remove a climb they though was below THEM. And again if someone was doing it for the right reasons they'd wouldn't be anonymous cowards and they'd be able to stand behind what they did and explain why they did it, and they would have removed the bolts and patched the holes, instead it sounds like they just stole the hangers. There are chicken retro-bolts that have been added to climbs, that SHOULD be chopped. Why didn't the chopper of this climb chop any of those? Because they are hard to get to and chop, and because they are on harder climbs, and that's too much to ask of a coward.

Edit to add: the 10 year old above is a great example of the person this type of climb is for. Imagine the thrill of being 10 years old and doing your first lead on this climb. No worries about placing cams and nuts, and building an anchor. But being out on the sharp end, starting to develop a lead head and experience a grand adventure. The anonymous cowards are so wrapped up in their egos they don't see they are simply ruining things for people who want that challenge. Royal Robbins (one of the most important voices in the clean climbing revolution) realized this over 50 years ago when he stopped chopping the Dawn Wall (Wall of Early Morning Light). The challenge another FA puts up may not be your cup of tea but imposing your style on them is a douche bag move. Royal was brave enough to admit he was wrong and talk about it afterwards.

American Chopperwrote:

Sasha needs to add a bolt to book of hate?  Pork chops 

Well, Sasha didn't place that bolt, but go off.

Listen guys, your route did not die in vain. 

We went ahead and retro bolted Snake Dike so your 10 year old kids have something to practice developing their lead head on.

We took the rest of the hangers and created a El Cap Flag anchoring system for hanging your favorite flag while you send the route.

As of mid Aug, the geriatric/invalid/wanker has finally found the strength to remove the final two bolts/hangars from the upper section of aoxomoxoa so, after 3 or 4 sessions, they have completed what looked to be about 1.5-2hrs of “work.”
Still zero holes patched, so bravo for their “clean” ethics, I am truly inspired by the commitment to Robbins ethos. 

American Chopperwrote:

Listen guys, your route did not die in vain. 

We went ahead and retro bolted Snake Dike so your 10 year old kids have something to practice developing their lead head on.

We took the rest of the hangers and created a El Cap Flag anchoring system for hanging your favorite flag while you send the route.

1/10.

Chopper, I hope you realize your selfish action has the potential consequence of getting someone killed. 

Lets imagine a hypothetical situation that could easily happen. To start, lets consider a pair of climbers that are still relatively new to climbing and haven't climbed in tuolumne before. They just drove in from the Bay area and they want to climb something quick before heading over the pass to find a campsite, so they head up something moderate, lets say West Country. Due to the unfamiliar style of climbing, it takes them way longer to get up the climb than expected and it gets dark on them just as they are topping out the route. No worries, they read the descent description and know once they find the anchors by the top of far west country it is just 3 raps to the ground, so they find the rap anchors to get down to the base of top gun, then rap down from there and start looking for those anchors they read about, but in the exhaustion of a long drive then a mini epic on a route they thought was going to be easy, they forgot to knot the ends of their rope. As the first person raps, looking hard for the anchor that they read can be easy to miss, they rap off the ends of their rope and fall 100+ feet to the ground. Maybe they die instantly, maybe they bleed out on the ledge as their partner tries to call 911.

In this situation, the rap anchor (p1 anchor of Aoxomoxoa) being chopped directly lead to the death of our hypothetical climber. You also can't say this is a far fetched scenario. Based on the Hirsch Bukowski guide, West Country is a top rated 5.7 climb that is basically road side with an easy approach and descent. For a climber with just a bit of experience who is new to the area, that is a very enticing option, and with the bay area being about a 5 hour drive away, it is definitely a reasonable after drive climb. If someone actually does end up dying because of this, what will you have to say?

Knot your ends folks!

American Chopperwrote:

Listen guys, your route did not die in vain. 

We went ahead and retro bolted Snake Dike so your 10 year old kids have something to practice developing their lead head on.

We took the rest of the hangers and created a El Cap Flag anchoring system for hanging your favorite flag while you send the route.

Thanks for this! That's the community service we all need and deserve.

Natalie Blackburnwrote:

Thanks for this! That's the community service we all need and deserve.

Perhaps read the entire thread to clarify your misunderstanding?

Also, you were trolled!

Elaine Gilstromwrote:

Chopper, I hope you realize your selfish action has the potential consequence of getting someone killed. 

Let’s imagine a hypothetical situation that could easily happen. To start, let’s consider a pair of climbers that are still relatively new to climbing and haven't climbed in tuolumne before. They just drove in from the Bay area and they want to climb something quick before heading over the pass to find a campsite, so …

Half way through this post most of the anti-chop people changed their minds and bought their own hacksaws.

Is the great Snake Dike "to retrobolt or forever be a danger to society " debate finally over?

It’s interesting that the route was established by a certain someone who just released a guidebook.  Perhaps said author spent the last couple years in Tuolumne, putting up BS routes for filler for their new guidebook?  A guidebook that basically mimics the book that was released 2 years ago?  Hmmmm strange times. 

American Chopperwrote:

It’s interesting that the route was established by a certain someone who just released a guidebook.  Perhaps said author spent the last couple years in Tuolumne, putting up BS routes for filler for their new guidebook?  A guidebook that basically mimics the book that was released 2 years ago?  Hmmmm strange times. 

That's interesting?

Still, why chop?

American Chopperwrote:

It’s interesting that the route was established by a certain someone who just released a guidebook.  Perhaps said author spent the last couple years in Tuolumne, putting up BS routes for filler for their new guidebook?  A guidebook that basically mimics the book that was released 2 years ago?  Hmmmm strange times. 

1. Guidebooks are solely compiled for altruistic motives.

2. More routes are always good because they spread out the crowds.

3. A 10 year old girl is sad because there are not any safe routes for her now.

4.A hypothetical team might rap off the end of their rope and realize they can walk down the rest of the way.

Ahh I see how an earlier post was misleading.  Let me clarify.  The American Chopper is a spirit, not a person.  I personally didn’t chop your route 

good luck trying to sort that out - maybe hold the FAist responsible for patching those holes, I mean he was the one that put them there in the first place right?

American Chopperwrote:

... maybe hold the FAist responsible for patching those holes, I mean he was the one that put them there in the first place right?

At least put *some* effort into your troll posts.

Zachariah Weirphrey wrote:

2024 guidebook. Looks like it was bolted with permission.... 

And yeah, my 10 year old daughter was disappointed that is was chopped. It was a route she picked out and wanted to do. 

Clearly a few don't want future generations to climb. 

For me, observing the zeitgeist of climbing is a comedy of extreme dissenting viewpoints. Equating the silliness of this situation with not wanting young people to climb is exactly what i‘m referring to.

You are free to replace or add bolts to the route in question or any other route of your choosing.

I have climbed features where I placed bolts for protection. I have made it publicly known that i make no claim of ownership to any climb I did. Climbers are free to add to or chop any route I have climbed.

I have never felt compelled to alter any route.

The stylistic and ethical zealotry associated with simple rock climbs is like dogs pissing on fire hydrants.

American Chopperwrote:

putting up BS routes…

Are you saying the two routes in question were in that category? The opinions offered both here and on the MP page for them would beg to differ…

for their new guidebook?  A guidebook that basically mimics the book that was released 2 years ago?  Hmmmm strange times. 

The new guide is not a clone of the hirsch/buk guide by any stretch of the imagination. 

0/2

@Zach, the route you mentioned was left alone, interestingly enough… we are discussing the two 5.easy routes to the left of TT

Also, to the person postulating that the lack of anchors could create a rap issue… few, if any, use those anchors as a continuation of the SPD rap system. Most everyone does their three raps and walks westerly from there

Christian Heschwrote:

Are you saying the two routes in question were in that category? The opinions offered both here and on the MP page for them would beg to differ…

The new guide is not a clone of the hirsch/buk guide by any stretch of the imagination. 

0/2

@Zach, the route you mentioned was left alone, interestingly enough… we are discussing the two 5.easy routes to the left of TT

Also, to the person postulating that the lack of anchors could create a rap issue… few, if any, use those anchors as a continuation of the SPD rap system. Most everyone does their three raps and walks westerly from there

Elaine Gilstrom · 17 hours ago · SF Bay Area, CA · Joined May 2019 · Points: 79

Chopper, I hope you realize your selfish action has the potential consequence of getting someone killed. 

Lets imagine a hypothetical situation that could easily happen. To start, lets consider a pair of climbers that are still relatively new to climbing and haven't climbed in tuolumne before. They just drove in from the Bay area and they want to climb something quick before heading over the pass to find a campsite, so they head up something moderate, lets say West Country. Due to the unfamiliar style of climbing, it takes them way longer to get up the climb than expected and it gets dark on them just as they are topping out the route. No worries, they read the descent description and know once they find the anchors by the top of far west country it is just 3 raps to the ground, so they find the rap anchors to get down to the base of top gun, then rap down from there and start looking for those anchors they read about, but in the exhaustion of a long drive then a mini epic on a route they thought was going to be easy, they forgot to knot the ends of their rope. As the first person raps, looking hard for the anchor that they read can be easy to miss, they rap off the ends of their rope and fall 100+ feet to the ground. Maybe they die instantly, maybe they bleed out on the ledge as their partner tries to call 911.

In this situation, the rap anchor (p1 anchor of Aoxomoxoa) being chopped directly lead to the death of our hypothetical climber. You also can't say this is a far fetched scenario. Based on the Hirsch Bukowski guide, West Country is a top rated 5.7 climb that is basically road side with an easy approach and descent. For a climber with just a bit of experience who is new to the area, that is a very enticing option, and with the bay area being about a 5 hour drive away, it is definitely a reasonable after drive climb. If someone actually does end up dying because of this, what will you have to say?

5

Do people seriously prefer doing multiple raps to casually walking off of the SPD? Or do they mindlessly follow beta from some source of authority? 

Is route finding and 2nd class walking too much effort for modern climbers? 

Edit.  I looked at the SPD page and the walk off is described as class 3/4. Describing this terrain as such is a real dis-service to anyone trying to understand sub 5th class grades. Climbers have walked down SPD for decades (often barefoot). A person that believes the SPD walkoff is class 3/4 will be shocked when faced with similarly described terrain elsewhere. 

I suspect that accepting some limited exposure and overcoming fear would be a rewarding and memorable experience for many people. Ultimately, each person is free to choose their own path, but all must consider that the reality of altering a cliff for convenience and safety will remain a controversial topic, especially in regards to areas with rich histories of adventure.

I guess BS in terms that it doesn’t match the cliff, or the area for that matter.  I get retro bolting permission was given - as Daniel eloquently put it - there are many users to any shared space, and in reality they can do whatever they want.  California is stoked with history of the users regulating these spaces, I guess it’s what we call “ethics”.  

  Imagine if turkey trot (I know that’s not the route in question - but it was put up in 80 and probably the closet ‘precident’ example we have on that cliff) was put up with the amount of bolts that exist on it today.  Do you all believe it wouldn’t have been regulated in 1980?

OK fair - it’s 2025. But isn’t what makes TM special is the history it holds?

I’ve really got no dog in this fight, but I’m not surprised that route is gone for now.

and no qualms with the new guidebook or its quality.  I don’t know.  Ive just see a lot of new routes that have been put up throughout the years by the author, and it hasn’t rubbed everyone the right way.