New and experienced climbers over 50 #38

Absolutely stunning day today here in the Northeast---70s, dry, pretty sky--very much needed after our long hot and humid ( though too dry in terms of rain) spell.

Got out to our main local crag ( Farley Ledge). Nothing new, all pretty easy but did a lot, so tiring---but fun climbing with good company--what it is all about!!!!!

Randy wrote:

Rarely.

When I repeat a route that I climbed years ago, I now call it an "amnesia onsight."

We call it an Alzheimer’s Onsight.  

Alan Rubin wrote:

 1954--you started using chalk much earlier than I realized. I assume that you were already involved in gymnastics by then and adapted chalk use from that experience?
I can say that when I started in 1963, and for a while after, at least where I climbed ( at Devil's Lake, and to some degree at the Gunks), the climbing 'establishment'--at least as represented by the leadership of the climbing clubs, was quite hostile to chalk use, and people such as Rich and his peers were considered to be bad examples ( I was directly told this by one of the club leaders at Wisconsin, who dismissed them as 'acrobats'---I'm sure you would consider that appellation to be a compliment!!!!). Fortunately I didn't listen to them and became another 'bad example.'

I was introduced to gymnastics and chalk at GaTech the Fall of 1954. During 1958-59 I was at UofChi and was a member of the mountaineering club there, led by Mike Fain. I can't recall what Mike thought of chalk, but we did discuss possible surgical approaches to keeping the hands from sweating. I suspect the leaders of the Chicago Mountaineering Club looked with distain at the practice, but the Onion Farmer tried it when we bouldered together.

Helmut Röhrl was a climber and visiting mathematician while I was there, and he told me stories of his friend Hermann Buhl. Another member of the Club was Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the father of flow. Mike Fain became part of Judith Michael. How curious the pages of history.

John Gill wrote:

I was introduced to gymnastics and chalk at GaTech the Fall of 1954. During 1958-59 I was at UofChi and was a member of the mountaineering club there, led by Mike Fain. I can't recall what Mike thought of chalk, but we did discuss possible surgical approaches to keeping the hands from sweating. I suspect the leaders of the Chicago Mountaineering Club looked with distain at the practice, but the Onion Farmer tried it when we bouldered together.

Helmut Röhrl was a climber and visiting mathematician while I was there, and he told me stories of his friend Hermann Buhl. Another member of the Club was Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the father of flow. Mike Fain became part of Judith Michael. How curious the pages of history.

"The Onion Farmer" was Dave Slinger--a Devil's Lake legend and fixture for many years. He was actually a banker ( I believe) and commodities trader ( among other things) who owned a farm, but very much cultivated an 'old hick farmer' image--a great character. There are already multiple stories about Dave floating around on the internet, some here on MP, I believe, so won't repeat them now, but worth seeking out. 

John Gill wrote:

I was introduced to gymnastics and chalk at GaTech the Fall of 1954. During 1958-59 I was at UofChi and was a member of the mountaineering club there, led by Mike Fain. I can't recall what Mike thought of chalk, but we did discuss possible surgical approaches to keeping the hands from sweating. I suspect the leaders of the Chicago Mountaineering Club looked with distain at the practice, but the Onion Farmer tried it when we bouldered together.

Helmut Röhrl was a climber and visiting mathematician while I was there, and he told me stories of his friend Hermann Buhl. Another member of the Club was Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the father of flow. Mike Fain became part of Judith Michael. How curious the pages of history.

Too cool!  Thanks for the confirmation of the history!

And you have one degree of separation from Herman Buhl!  Very nice!

I also have one degree of separation from Herman Buhl!  I met and had a great discussion with Kurt Diemberger back in the 1990's!

;)

I think that he is still alive?  At least I have not heard that he has passed yet.

Reminds me of probably my favorite mountaineering photo of all time.  When the going gets rough I think back to this photo and say, "Well Hell, this is not as bad as solo'ing Nanga Parbat in 1953!"

Buck Rogers wrote:

Too cool!  Thanks for the confirmation of the history!

And you have one degree of separation from Herman Buhl!  Very nice!

I also have one degree of separation from Herman Buhl!  I met and had a great discussion with Kurt Diemberger back in the 1990's!

;)

I think that he is still alive?  At least I have not heard that he has passed yet.

Reminds me of probably my favorite mountaineering photo of all time.  When the going gets rough I think back to this photo and say, "Well Hell, this is not as bad as solo'ing Nanga Parbat in 1953!"

According to Wikipedia, Diemberger is still very much alive at 93---one of the last living links to the 'golden age' of 8000 meter peak-bagging ( and much more).
I heard him give a presentation once and he was a very dynamic and charismatic speaker. He is also an excellent writer. His autobiographical books include some of the best writing that I have encountered in the climbing 'genre'---several of the individual chapters, in particular, are outstanding, even standing alone ( including some that don't involve climbing at all).

fossil wrote:

Rest assured it is not the trad climber in me that is aghast, rather it is the senior citizen with many injuries under his belt who is trying to hang on to what little connective tissue he has, so he can milk this climbing thing for as long as he can that is saying wtf. 

As the baby in this group (at 55) I'm not a brittle fossil yet!  To be truthful, I am more careful than I may have suggested, but where you seem to revel in your fossilized state, I am trying to keep a flexible mindset.  

Solid static jamming technique is going to take me much further than being able to stick a long shot sideways dyno, and though I could be wrong I think the same is true for any climber, not just seniors. Otherwise, how could it be that I have lost track of how many times have I hung back and laughed at one of these  talented youngsters with their grasp of this “more athletic approach to climbing” that you speak of, as they lieback, then fall off, and then call sandbag on the 5.10 crack that I just led for them. Granted, I am not saying this is anyone involved in this conversation, it is just a reality that I frequently see. 

Crack technique is absolutely important (and personally I love it) but it's not the be-all-end-all.  

I've probably done tens of thousands of feet of crack climbing, and that gives me an intuitive ability to draw on a range of jamming skills, such that if I'm on a face climb where suddenly the most efficient rest, or best way to execute a move, involves a subtle or technical jam, I have that arrow in my quiver, as do you.  But I also recognize that doing lots of different kinds of dynamic moves close to a nice padded floor gives me the techniques I need to execute a dynamic move that is often more efficient than a fully static solution on a climb.  

Fortunately for my young friends they have youth and strength on their side so any of them that stick with the program eventually get better, some even surpassing the master, since their curve is upward and mine the reverse.

Even though I know my strongest days are far behind me, I keep learning, and that both keeps me at a decent level, (even gaining in some ways) and keeps me challenged.  I like that.

I guess I'm just not ready to start fossilizing!

GO 

Alan Rubin wrote:

According to Wikipedia, Diemberger is still very much alive at 93---one of the last living links to the 'golden age' of 8000 meter peak-bagging ( and much more).
I heard him give a presentation once and he was a very dynamic and charismatic speaker. He is also an excellent writer. His autobiographical books include some of the best writing that I have encountered in the climbing 'genre'---several of the individual chapters, in particular, are outstanding, even standing alone ( including some that don't involve climbing at all).

In 1992 my sister called me and said some friends of her's were friends with "a famous climber from Europe" was coming to Eugene and was willing to show from slides. I had no idea who it was but I gathered up a couple of my climbing friends and we headed to Eugene. Turns out it was Kurt Diemberger. He didn't show any climbing slides but instead showed slides of his early years working as a rigger for various movies and various other adventures. What a fascinating man. I came away with a couple of autographed books.

GabeO wrote:

I guess I'm just not ready to start fossilizing!

I don't think anyone is ready to start fossilizing. It's more a question of fossilizing being ready for you. And then you deal with it how you can.

Gabe, I couldn’t agree more.   I’m touchier about this than I thought I would be. I fully embrace those who are happily getting creaky. But I’m not ready to cop to any of it.

It’s been a wonderful summer here, but something about the angle of the sun tells me the season is changing and it makes me a little sad. Summer is freedom to me.

I’ve spent a lot of time lately studying concepts of strength and balance. But as I focus on this one relatively easy route (on brownie girl dome) I keep wondering why the starting moves are so difficult for me. It’s basically two side pulls and a step up onto a very thin edge.  That should be easy but for me, but it’s always a shot of adrenaline. So I’ve been working on the Slack board and realizing you cannot stay rigid on shaky ground. You have to be agile.

That’s the long way of saying that I started watching videos of Dean Potter slacklining and thought “that’s what I need“. Has anyone ever climbed with Dean? Every part of his body was fluid and flexible and so totally relaxed. And I think those are the qualities that would make those starting moves easy for me.  Not rigid brut strength but the agility to ease on up.  So I’ve been focusing a lot of my exercise on mobility and flexibility.

—-

Tony left for Chicago this morning and while he’s out on the road doing his thing I’m still roaming. It’s hard to explain why it means so much to me to get around on my own in this park. Especially finding my own path to routes with difficult scrambles. I know that Bob or other competent climbers can chaperone. I really want to do it myself.

So – – I wasn’t expecting it this morning, but Ifound a suitable way for me to get to grain surgery without risking a long fall.  This shouldn’t be such a cause for celebration, but it really is.  I feel like I really did something. I can get there on my own now.

And that means maybe we can go back and I can climb it clean.  

I’m ready to go get PRP injections on my knee. 

I’m lucky in that I have no health or joint issues at age 64.  I climbed with a woman yesterday at the gym that I used to climb with occasionally in the 1980’s.  She is only one year older than I am, and she has already had her hip and knee replaced.  She is trying to get back into climbing, slowly building up.  Certainly genetics plays a part, but we can all do the best that we can with what we have been dealt.   Edit for apogee: Paula has some, relatively minor. No arthritis so far for me.

Besides all the joint replacements that are pretty commonplace these days, is anyone here dealing with ongoing arthritis? Seems like all of the years of cranking and crimping would be a setup for arthritic hands/etc, but I don’t recall much talk about it here. (Fortunately, I’m in a similar boat as Ward, though.)

Yeah almost 71 and I have arthritis in my hands. I’ve been a climber for 54 years but I attribute my arthritis to being a carpenter and then cabinetmaker for 50 years. I used my hands hard. Climbing was hard on them but woodworking was harder on them. Lots of repetitive strenuous hand movement requiring total control. 

As long as I warm up by doing some easy climbing it’s generally not a problem for climbing but sometimes in my shop a hand or finger will just go off on me and I just have to stop what I’m doing and stretch them and remember how lucky I am to still have all my digits after all these years of tool use. 

Yeah, arthritis in most of my joints, some ( so far, at least) more impactful than others. I have been able to mostly 'climb through it' ( warming up easy as Norm describes), but there are just certain types of moves that I can no longer do--and that list is growing longer!!!!

Edit to add: Fossil, maybe, just maybe, your 'screen name' might suggest to folks that you 'revel in your fossilized state'!!!!

Gabe and Lori,

Man, you guys are a tough crowd to get through to…

Nevertheless, thanks Gabe for getting back to me on the why of what you do.

Gabe says… “you seem to revel in your fossilized state, I am trying to keep a flexible mindset. “ 

Lori says… “I fully embrace those who are happily getting creaky. But I’m not ready to cop to any of it.”

Dragons says…”I don't think anyone is ready to start fossilizing. It's more a question of fossilizing being ready for you. And then you deal with it how you can.”

I say… Dragons for the win! 

 I often joke about our collective aging process on this thread, but when it comes to the reality of “keeping a flexible mindset” and “getting creaky and not copping to any of it”, I would venture that I am going way beyond what either of you are doing in that regard.  So, I gotta ask why so quick to put me in the “reveling in my fossilized state category”?

Gabe, if you want to come on out I promise that I will take a break from “reveling in my fossilized state” and instead revel in the fact that I am burning off someone 14 years my junior. 

While I try not to dispense advice here (cuz many here think my advice is nonsense), I will say that preparing too much or too rigidly could impede one's ability to be fully present and responsive to the actual encounter with the unknown.

Food for thought anyway… you all have a nice day!

fossil wrote:

Gabe and Lori,

Man, you guys are a tough crowd to get through to…

Nevertheless, thanks Gabe for getting back to me on the why of what you do.

Gabe says… “you seem to revel in your fossilized state, I am trying to keep a flexible mindset. “ 

Lori says… “I fully embrace those who are happily getting creaky. But I’m not ready to cop to any of it.”

Dragons says…”I don't think anyone is ready to start fossilizing. It's more a question of fossilizing being ready for you. And then you deal with it how you can.”

I say… Dragons for the win! 

 I often joke about our collective aging process on this thread, but when it comes to the reality of “keeping a flexible mindset” and “getting creaky and not copping to any of it”, I would venture that I am going way beyond what either of you are doing in that regard.  So, I gotta ask why so quick to put me in the “reveling in my fossilized state category”?

Gabe, if you want to come on out I promise that I will take a break from “reveling in my fossilized state” and instead revel in the fact that I am burning off someone 14 years my junior. 

While I try not to dispense advice here (cuz many here think my advice is nonsense), I will say that preparing too much or too rigidly could impede one's ability to be fully present and responsive to the actual encounter with the unknown.

Food for thought anyway… you all have a nice day!

Hey fossil,

I think... probably KNOW... that you are one of the strongest climbers here.  I would LOVE to see more of which you speak. (what exactly you do to keep yourself so fit and strong).  And for sure, more climbing pictures and stories!  

It's hard for me to step around this subject, and because it's come up many times (in the distant past), I do believe I may be the only one who is so sensitive to this.  No one else seems to care. So I'm going to blame it on being a woman. (although, Helen completely disagrees with me).  And I'm going to blame it on having a very late start at fun.  I had just one prayer as I was raising a difficult family... "Please God, just let me come out of this alive, and without a terrible disease."  I got my wish... and here I am, having a truly second adolescence.  So, to my elder friends out there, give me a fucking minute before expecting me to act old, go gray and take up a cane.   

Everywhere I look people are SO ready to put us in our place.  To make assumptions, that we will be feeble, elderly, forgetful... way past our peak.  (My peak is actually NOW--partly because I started so late!).  That our bones are weak, our livers inflammed, our kidneys failing.  And that we are pitiful in endeavors such as rock climbing.  At best, we get patronized.  (Isn't that sweet.) 

May I mention sagging breasts?  WHY do women find this so funny?  Ha ha, we are no longer sexy, curvy, or sexual???  

Here's how offended I get.  A few years ago, waiting in line to get through our entrance gate, a Ranger asked to see my license along with my pass.  When she saw that I was over 65, she actually confiscated my PAID FOR pass, and handed me a FREE Senior Card.  She said "from now on you get to have a free pass to the park!".  I didn't want it!  I wanted the one I purchased!  And I understand it was a kindness... she was trying to save me some money.  Just.... maybe she should have ASKED. (I forgot to mention that she handed my pass to the car behind me... who happened to be my daughter... so she wouldn't have to purchase one.) 

I've probably yammered on enough about the medical establishment... leaving Tony in a nursing home, unfed, for months... for starters.  I mean, he was 75... gonna die soon anyway, right?  Having to jump through months of hoops to get a basic level of testosterone, with doctor asking him 'why'?.  

I realize we have to make accomodations for age, climbing-wise and health-wise.  But I am so stoked, still, and in no way holding myself back because of age.  If I hold myself back, it's because I'm a shitty climber... and I would have done likewise at 30.  Nothing is busted.  Nothing broke. 

So I think you can give yourself the nickname "fossil" because you know you aren't.  You can probably spank climbers half your age.  But in my neck of the woods, with no proven track record, just call me "Lori". ("Babe" is ok, too.)    

(I cut this WAY short.    )

---

btw...can we talk about this beautiful man and his balance and agility?  I have watched how totally UNrigid he was... strong but so agile.  

This has taken a predictable turn. Perhaps some neutral site is in order for the big burn off. 

Lori…. Good on you to keep hitting the Ryan Mt. Trail- even in the heat.

It’s in your jeans you know. Way down inside, is your code, the little gene that wakes up one day and lets you know that you are PIPE, done, finished, kaput, washed up, dusted.
Some folks need to wake up dead to really know when it’s over.

I almost broke my arm the other day, fishing! Was walking through knee deep sage last Saturday. My foot got snagged. The other foot got held up by the sage- so I couldn’t get it out front to stop me from going over head first. Landed on my right arm. A woody sage bush slowed the fall, but left several “sticks” implanted in my flesh, the small granite boulder that was hidden under the sage got me on the wrist. But I didn’t break my Fly Rod or glasses but I wasn’t too sure about my wrist. The big sharp pain went away that evening so I figured It was not broken.
I could still hold my Rod the next morning so I stayed and fished some more.

On a climbing note- I scored on a pair of Mythos on the “for sale” section last week, old style leather ones, they arrived and the boots are Brand New! They still have the decals on the bottom and the rubber is still sticky!

Now all we need to do is figure out where it might be cool enuf to climb this weekend.
Maybe Valhalla - that place that may not be talked about on MP! Next to a waterfall, in a tight gorge that only gets sun for a few days each year.

Happy Climbing 

edit to add: 

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/110962863/valhalla

And a off color joke- don’t read if easily offended:

a old married couple are talking.

The Man says “I’ve done just what I promised you” 

Women says “What was that?”

Man: “I sucked the life outta your T*ts and F&@ked your brains out.

Forgive me please, after seeing that comic Lori posted I couldn’t help myself.

. . . I’ll take the soup. 

philip bone wrote:

. . . I’ll take the soup. 

Not the Lime Jello?