New and experienced climbers over 50 #38

I have always liked the idea of communes, but unfortunately you usually end up with a small percent carrying everything and the rest groovin, being slobs and not putting the work in. 

You find this interesting. "Paradise Now." Chris Jennings. Well-written, engaging, it's about utopianism in the US and about 4 utopian communities in the US, Oneida, the Shakers (One Shaker community left, 2 members), New Harmony, and Icaria.  

Alan is right Buck, but be careful with a 60.  Metamorphosis is a classic 5.8 at the left end of the Main Cliff and more than one person has been lowered off the end of their 60 meter rope by people who were belaying well back from the wall and not paying attention!

dragons wrote:

That's all good, but what about elderly athletes? If you're running around all day carrying a pack with gear and rope, might you not need extra protein, at least for that day, and maybe it would help for a few surrounding days as well? I don't think these studies of the average elderly population apply to many of the people reading this thread.
PS Blue zones have been called into question. But my impression is that the Blue zone populations are not highly athletic, though they are mobile and very active compared to western populations.

There aren’t a lot of studies in elderly athletes. But extrapolating from other populations, it seems really unlikely they’d require 150%+ protein of every other group to maintain functionality.

And you’re right, Blue Zone data is imperfect - it’s all retrospective, observational info, after all. But it’s impractical to perform randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies over a human lifespan, especially when you consider all the confounders. So it’s about as a good a starting point as we can hope for, imo.

While traditional Okinawans aren’t athletes by any definition, the fact they’ve produced disproportionately high numbers of active nona- and centarians, who also happen to be rail thin, speaks against high protein requirements and resistance training for functional longevity. And there’s animal data which suggests protein restriction optimizes lifespan, with mechanistic plausibility via inhibition of some key anabolic pathways (esp. mTOR and IGF-1).

Please don’t get me wrong: I agree elderly athletes need more protein than sedentary people. And resistance training is good for prolonging functionality. I just think there are ceilings to these benefits, and opportunity costs for fixating on them, as has occurred in pop science, commercialized podcast culture in the last few years.

WF WF51 wrote:

I have always liked the idea of communes, but unfortunately you usually end up with a small percent carrying everything and the rest groovin, being slobs and not putting the work in.

I lived in a commune for several years as a teenager, and since then have observed several friends living in similar settings or ‘intentional communities’. Every one of those situations melted down eventually, pretty much for the reasons stated above (and other social weirdness that developed there).

Great beta, Permabeta. Much obliged.

dragons wrote:

I won't talk about my plans. However, in NY state, the cost of 24/7 nursing home care is well over $100K/year. I think most people won't have that saved up by the time they have to go into a nursing home. The way it works is that your accounts are drained to pay for nursing home care until you are so poor that you are eligible for Medicaid. Then Medicaid starts paying. Medicaid then also takes all your income until you die. I think that some people hire very expensive lawyers to set up trusts that evade the Medicaid rules, but you have to do it early enough to make it work.

Anyway, I don't want to go this way. I hate the idea of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars propping up my poor unhappy body to get a few extra years of suffering. But people are different, and minds can change.

My choice will be the black pill. 

Permabeta wrote:

There aren’t a lot of studies in elderly athletes. But extrapolating from other populations, it seems really unlikely they’d require 150%+ protein of every other group to maintain functionality.

And you’re right, Blue Zone data is imperfect - it’s all retrospective, observational info, after all. But it’s impractical to perform randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies over a human lifespan, especially when you consider all the confounders. So it’s about as a good a starting point as we can hope for, imo.

While traditional Okinawans aren’t athletes by any definition, the fact they’ve produced disproportionately high numbers of active nona- and centarians, who also happen to be rail thin, speaks against high protein requirements and resistance training for functional longevity. And there’s animal data which suggests protein restriction optimizes lifespan, with mechanistic plausibility via inhibition of some key anabolic pathways (esp. mTOR and IGF-1).

Please don’t get me wrong: I agree elderly athletes need more protein than sedentary people. And resistance training is good for prolonging functionality. I just think there are ceilings to these benefits, and opportunity costs for fixating on them, as has occurred in pop science, commercialized podcast culture in the last few years.

There seem to be a lot of different viewpoints on this subject but as you noted the quality of available research isn't as rigorous as one might hope for. So my general rule is to try to avoid extremes. That being said I can see the fraction of your daily intake that comes from protein needing to increase as one gets older simply because total calorie intake tends to decline. As a young college athlete I consumed 4000 to 5000 calories a day. So 100 grams of protein would be only 8% to 10% of my total. On a 2000 calorie a day diet 8% is just 40 grams a day.

apogee wrote:

I lived in a commune for several years as a teenager, and since then have observed several friends living in similar settings or ‘intentional communities’. Every one of those situations melted down eventually, pretty much for the reasons stated above (and other social weirdness that developed there).

Great beta, Permabeta. Much obliged.

Sorry, I wasn't the one who wrote that I lived in a commune; the first line of my post was a cut-and-paste from someone else's. 

I did add something to Mark's post about commune living, a recommendation for a book on American Utopianism. The four utopian communities - I suppose they could be called communes - that are discussed all eventually failed, but not for reasons of selfishness, irresponsibility, and/or laziness, and several of them had a long run. The Shakers were/are doomed to die out for obvious reasons, although there is still one Shaker community remaining in Maine. 

Permabeta wrote:

There aren’t a lot of studies in elderly athletes. But extrapolating from other populations, it seems really unlikely they’d require 150%+ protein of every other group to maintain functionality.

And you’re right, Blue Zone data is imperfect - it’s all retrospective, observational info, after all. But it’s impractical to perform randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies over a human lifespan, especially when you consider all the confounders. So it’s about as a good a starting point as we can hope for, imo.

While traditional Okinawans aren’t athletes by any definition, the fact they’ve produced disproportionately high numbers of active nona- and centarians, who also happen to be rail thin, speaks against high protein requirements and resistance training for functional longevity. And there’s animal data which suggests protein restriction optimizes lifespan, with mechanistic plausibility via inhibition of some key anabolic pathways (esp. mTOR and IGF-1).

Please don’t get me wrong: I agree elderly athletes need more protein than sedentary people. And resistance training is good for prolonging functionality. I just think there are ceilings to these benefits, and opportunity costs for fixating on them, as has occurred in pop science, commercialized podcast culture in the last few years.

Also, some of this discussion on this thread is about two issues: longevity and athletic ability in aging people. Of course, for us, they are connected.

Idaho Bob wrote:

My choice will be the black pill. 

Mine is the Ruger Super Blackhawk in .45 Colt

@Lori …. Insomnia! WTF? Now you’re dreaming. How about- do the hike- and start on “GramCrackers” ….. you could really do that one in good style.
OR go climb “Surprise” 5.8 - all 3 pitches. That is one historic root, one bolt, caused a big blow up in the community BITD. That one opened up the concept of bolt protected face climbing. And if you do get up that way, after climbing Surprise, when you’re rappelling down, you gotta do “The Mantle of No Return” 5.7 …. Then “Superfly”another 5.7 … Do these Classics all from the Rap anchors - no hiking around.
Then go try Valhalla- StoneMaster fame awaits.

But seriously…. Hike up there, bring your gear. Climbers paradise awaits.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105792770/mantle-of-no-return 

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105792766/superfly

Gram Crackers….. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105791196/graham-crackers

WF WF51 wrote:

I have always liked the idea of communes, but unfortunately you usually end up with a small percent carrying everything and the rest groovin, being slobs and not putting the work in. 

You find this interesting. "Paradise Now." Chris Jennings. Well-written, engaging, it's about utopianism in the US and about 4 utopian communities in the US, Oneida, the Shakers (One Shaker community left, 2 members), New Harmony, and Icaria.  

Thanks for the title. I will look it up.

I used to go to meditation retreats when I was young at the Abode, a Sufi community at the old Shaker village in New Lebanon, NY, back when Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan was alive. Boy, driving home after a week of that and stopping off at a McDonald's highway rest stop was really weird. It felt like I was around a bunch of freaky aliens. (still does a little, actually)

 They had a program for seniors to come and live there so they had a supportive community in the latter part of their life. I always thought that was a great idea if you had a similar mindset. I respected Pir Vilayet, but I have never been too into the guru/groupie thing, so even then half the time I would hike up the mountain and meditate by myself. Last time I went was a week long retreat where you didn't speak. I lasted 2 days before I got distracted  by a girls fascinating breasts and lost the program.. We ended up blowing off the silence idea and wandering off and didn't do much meditating   

I have always been attracted to aspects of the Shaker community, even the style of their furniture, cabinetry and buildings. I saw really early footage of some shakers, and it was funny how similar some of the younger ones were to hippies of the late 60'; same hair, humor, just no tie-dye.

Emil Briggs wrote:

There seem to be a lot of different viewpoints on this subject but as you noted the quality of available research isn't as rigorous as one might hope for. So my general rule is to try to avoid extremes. That being said I can see the fraction of your daily intake that comes from protein needing to increase as one gets older simply because total calorie intake tends to decline. As a young college athlete I consumed 4000 to 5000 calories a day. So 100 grams of protein would be only 8% to 10% of my total. On a 2000 calorie a day diet 8% is just 40 grams a day.

Protein and other nutrient requirements vary throughout life, for sure, commensurate with changes in activity, body composition, and metabolism. Although % of total calories has been advocated as one way to determine dietary macronutrient composition (with 10%, or less considered “low”), weight based “dosing” makes more intuitive sense, imo. But it’s probably much more complicated, if you really get into the biochemical weeds.

That said, there’s enough data to support lower ceiling protein needs than the now ubiquitous 1 gram per pound body weight recommendation*, even for active individuals. And it’s probably limited, in part, by how much protein the body can utilize for maximal muscle synthesis (around 40g per feeding).

FWIW, blue zone peeps typically obtain 10-15% of their calories from protein, while Okinawans consume less than 10%. The standard American diet is 12-16%, with the average man consuming 90-100g; women are ~60-70. 

So protein deficiency probably isn’t the issue for most of us. Certainly for the average American, it’s all the ultra processed crap in the SAD, coupled with sedentary lifestyles.

*AFAIK, 1 gram per pound bw/daily isn’t routinely recommended by any nutrition or medical guidelines. It is largely a number generated by podcast health gurus, probably influenced in part by their disdain for the metric system.

Jim Malone wrote:

Very depressing and much of the reason that my wife and I are less frugal nowadays....  On expensive bikes bought with money the medical mafia covets.

I didn't intend to be depressing; I think of it as realism. Our wonderful capitalistic society has a weird way of industrializing everything: farming, education, defense, medicine, eldercare.
It all becomes very efficient and extractive. But if you want to work outside the system, it can become wildly expensive.
I will do what I can to avoid getting sucked into it.
I appreciate the medical and technical advances that have been made by people in genuine good faith.

M Sprague wrote:

... I will probably just stop eating. The problem is you are not even given the autonomy to do that and people would feel obligated (even legally) to  "help you" and drag you in (one benefit to being isolated I suppose). It is a nasty situation to navigate forcing people to make awful choices to try to maintain some dignity....

Personally, I think the nation should have mandatory service and if you didn't want to do the military or something similar you could do elder care. There is no excuse for a nation of so many billionaires that we can't have better universal care or be able to support families while caring for elders. Ideally there would be an extended family to all pitch in, but that is just not the case for many nowadays and, with all the modern requirements and expectations one person or even two get stretched to the max trying to do it with no help.

In my mom's case, we were fortunate in having a very clear directive from her that she absolutely did not want a feeding tube. Otherwise, we'd have been left with some bad decisions. She kept eating a very small amount up until the end, enough to keep her alive. She had a lot of trouble with choking when she ate. It was painful to watch and probably to experience. At this time, seeing what she went through, I'd prefer to stop eating and drinking once there. I imagine it might be difficult in the moment.

I kind of like the idea of mandatory service for eldercare. But I think it would go horribly wrong with more abuse than what we have now. You do not want coerced people taking care of anything.

On another note, I got out on Southern Pillar with Bill today, despite the poor air quality.

Bill foraged for wild raspberries along the Carriage Road. They have an interesting flavor:

WF WF51 wrote:

Also, some of this discussion on this thread is about two issues: longevity and athletic ability in aging people. Of course, for us, they are connected.

Absolutely. But as the elder statespeople around here can tell you, the definition of “athletic” definitely changes with age.

I getting sick of this damn fire smoke. my voice is starting to be affected... 

Ward Smith wrote:

Alan is right Buck, but be careful with a 60.  Metamorphosis is a classic 5.8 at the left end of the Main Cliff and more than one person has been lowered off the end of their 60 meter rope by people who were belaying well back from the wall and not paying attention!

Thank you Alan and Ward!

I'll bring a 70 and a 60 and be extra careful to knot the ends and check the beta for each route.

Excited to finally get back there!

Last time was in the '90's and only for a day.  Dean Potter was there that day.

Shows you how long ago that was!

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I getting sick of this damn fire smoke. my voice is starting to be affected... 

we’ve got it here too, Nick. I keep an air purifier going at all times and a humidifier when the air gets too dry. You may not have that problem with dryness. But my new happy place is your field of sunflowers. There can be no smoke there.   

Bob Gaines wrote:

I found this training device to be useful. 

I had pretty good balance to begin with, but after only a few sessions using this device I noticed improvement, at least for standing on one leg. After about a year using it, I can stand on one leg for several minutes, until my muscles start cramping. And I can stand on one leg with my eyes closed for 20 seconds, something I couldn't quite do before.

Bob has lectured me on balance a number of times and I think he’s way off base because imo my balance is PERFECT. But he has also warned “it’s the first thing to go” so I’ve been waiting for that first trip or fall sign of decrepitude, and then the perilous decline right into the grave. So I just bought one of these – – why fight City Hall?

There’s a link to some videos in the box and you’re supposed to start with “the balance test“. You’re supposed to PASS  the balance test before you even start working on the.Slackblock. I failed the balance test!.     it’s not a trick test, but it sure points to some deficits balance.

now that I’m looking at the plethora of coaching videos for Slack block on YouTube I can see that we’re talking about all kinds of foot, ankle and even knee strength.  

Give it a try. See how many can pass this easy test.

  slackbow.com/sblock

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I getting sick of this damn fire smoke. my voice is starting to be affected... 

No kidding. I had to bail on the Gunks yesterday after 2 days up there because I felt so bad.  Scratchy throat, lung crud, no energy.  I think the smoke had something to do with it.  Just could not deal with a 3rd day out in it.  And it's not as bad in New Paltz as in Vermont (I don't think).

Lori Milas wrote:

we’ve got it here too, Nick. I keep an air purifier going at all times and a humidifier when the air gets too dry. You may not have that problem with dryness. But my new happy place is your field of sunflowers. There can be no smoke there.   

Yup. Central NM is getting it from the Grand Canyon fire, and from the Gila fires prior to that. A couple of years back, we actually turned down an offer to buy a really cute house at well below market in Grass Valley. I think it’s just a matter of time before it and Nevada City go up in Flames. But hey, as long as climate change is a hoax…