Winds are full of shit.

Wyoming’s crowded Lonesome Lake tops EPA’s national survey for fecal contamination.

Doubt this is a surprise to anyone, and obviously it isn't just climbers. Likely the case in many of the popular wild places with water nearby. 

Normalize carrying your own poop out for all types of climbing in all places, not just the Winds. WA Pass, Tetons, everywhere in the desert, etc. It is so easy to make your own wag bags-

Start with 1 gallon ziploc, inside:

• 5 or 13 gallon trash bag filled with 1 cup kitty litter
• snack sized ziploc with wet wipes
• snack sized ziploc with TP

Poop in the trash bag, clean up and toss that in the trash bag, twist that off then seal everything up in the gallon ziplock it was all contained in to start. Best to burp it immediately and get it as small as it will go! 

Edit to add and flame the fire- keep your dog out of anywhere you would define as backcountry. Already f-ing annoying at the frontcountry crag as is, backcountry x100 and you are going multi-pitching?!

Gee Dubble wrote:

Best drinking water in the country since the elimination of domestic sheep grazing

What part of " https://wyofile.com/wyomings-crowded-lonesome-lake-tops-epas-national-survey-for-fecal-contamination/ " did you not understand?

My fear is people having the mindset of the lake being too far gone, so they just keep pooping. 

It is honorable to promote such care by individuals. And also the Wyoming government is responsible for not preventing the hordes from coming every year.

Yeah, I’m saying increased regulation is needed. Have seen it work in other like environments. But Wyoming doesn’t prioritize preserving wilderness. And fighting the battle at the level of individuals is doomed.

There are once in a while more important things than individual freedoms.

Bill Lawrywrote:

It is honorable to promote such care by individuals. And also the Wyoming government is responsible for not preventing the hordes from coming every year.

Yeah, I’m saying increased regulation is needed. Have seen it work in other like environments. But Wyoming doesn’t prioritize preserving wilderness. And fighting the battle at the level of individuals is doomed.

There are once in a while more important things than individual freedoms.

It is federal land. USFS. We know where that's going with the current federal admin.

I hate to say it, but we probably have reached a point where regulating traffic around The Cirque, Big Sandy Lake, and possibly Titcomb Basin is necessary... Data has yet to be published for Big Sandy, but it seems reasonable to assume that E.coli levels are very high, even though there is significantly more soil to treat the waste there than around Lonesome Lake. As far as I can tell, there have not been any water quality studies for Island Lake and the other lakes around Titcomb but the soil is shallow and the traffic is heavy.

Also, the Lonesome Lake samples were taken in early(ish) July, well before peak traffic. So, the levels are likely a good amount higher right after the brunt of the snowmelt and just after peak traffic.

E.Coli is a rather resistant bacteria, it stays dormant in the soils and then gets washed in during spring runoff/storms. Even if wag bags were 100% enforced, it would take multiple years for the current contamination of the soil/lake to drop below the EPA safety threshold. From ~500,000 cells/100ml, down to 1,280 cells/100ml. And that's not even considering the giardia, norovirus, crypto, etc. that most likely exists at high levels in these waters which were never tested for at these points. The cold water helps them survive much longer than normally observed in warmer areas.

For reference, if you only use a sterilization method, Aquamira/iodine/etc. to treat the lake water, this level of contamination will 100% make you sick. They were not designed to treat raw sewage... Swimming in that open septic tank might also mess u the fuq up.

Carrying out a week's worth of poo seems onerous and unlikely. If BLM can heli out poo from the bottom of Coyote Gulch one might think USFS could manage similar from a collection point or two in the Winds. Baltoro works that way as well. 

My guess is a helicopter would run into some wilderness rules. But perhaps they could be modified.

Helicopters regularly fly poop out of the national parks wilderness areas, Forest service also.

ddriverwrote:

Carrying out a week's worth of poo seems onerous and unlikely. If BLM can heli out poo from the bottom of Coyote Gulch one might think USFS could manage similar from a collection point or two in the Winds. Baltoro works that way as well. 

It's pretty dang easy. Especially when you think of the fact that you carried in the food that made it.

Ryan Kwrote:

It's pretty dang easy. Especially when you think of the fact that you carried in the food that made it.

I don’t think a pound brought in equals a pound that could be brought out, especially given that backpackers tend to bring in dehydrated food to save carry-in weight.

I’ve carried my poop out of the winds. I won’t pretend it didn’t suck, because it did. It is heavier on the way out for sure. It’s also the right thing to do. If your baby legs can’t carry it out, maybe you should consider a roadside crag rather than trashing the wilderness. Personal responsibility and all.

The flip side of this coin is that the area 100% needs more management, because it is getting loved to death. That can come in multiple forms. Permits are one option, but barrel toilets brought in and out by donkey is legal now, more effective than limits would be, and would be a better experience for climbers and hikers. At the end of the day, it is up to the government to decide what to do, but I know what my recommendation would be.

First step: stop letting the entitled  horses and llamas poo at will on the trail. Will also help with the biting flies

Humans definitely need to do better, but when horses are banned from trails or their riders or responsible for cleanup, that's when I'll consider packing out my own shit. In the meantime, I'll keep going way off the trail and staying well away from campsites and water and burying it.

We got some strange looks carrying our poop bags out a couple weekends ago. I don't really see it as a big deal but I've been doing that for a long time now and I'm pretty used to it. From my experience up there, it doesn't really seem like there is a lot of good areas to burry that its not going to end up in the water. Shallow sandy soils, short season for break down, and by its nature a giant bowl of snow melt into the lakes. We can all complain about the horses, and we would be right, but I can't control horses. I can, however, shit in a bag for a couple days and take it with me out of there.

Alex Smithwrote:

First step: stop letting the entitled  horses and llamas poo at will on the trail. Will also help with the biting flies

I'm pretty tired of hearing what-about-ism arguments from climbers. Seems like it's always "what about offroad users" or "what about horses" or some other user group to blame for resource damage. 

The lack of personal responsibility is pretty disappointing. Why not just do the right thing (packing your shit out) that will help protect an area that so many people cherish?

Eli Pwrote:

 Why not just do the right thing (packing your shit out) that will help protect an area that so many people cherish?

Because it won't make a difference so people are suggesting things that might. Yes we can all start small and do the right thing. But it wont change the poop levels. 

grug gwrote:

Because it won't make a difference so people are suggesting things that might. Yes we can all start small and do the right thing. But it wont change the poop levels. 

That is just not true. I suggest you read this paper concerning horse manure and public health. 

"Horse guts do not contain significant levels of the two waterborne pathogens of greatest concern to human health risk, Cryptosporidium or Giardia, neither do they contain significant amounts of the bacteria E. coli 0157:H7 or Salmonella. Fungus, viruses, bacteria and worms found in horses have never been shown to infect humans and are unlikely to be zoonotic"

TLDR: not all poo is the same

Robert Swrote:

Humans definitely need to do better, but when horses are banned from trails or their riders or responsible for cleanup, that's when I'll consider packing out my own shit. In the meantime, I'll keep going way off the trail and staying well away from campsites and water and burying it.

I've got the same sentiment about horse shit on the trails. It's gross and I shouldn't need to step through it because someone else is lazy.

However, the horses don't go into the cirque. At least not frequently. The drops are usually outside of the cirque. So at least use wag bags in the cirque.

You really don’t need everyone to pack out their poop.  If we just asked the people from Colorado to do it, that would be enough.  

Marc801 Cwrote:

What part of " https://wyofile.com/wyomings-crowded-lonesome-lake-tops-epas-national-survey-for-fecal-contamination/ " did you not understand?

Dubble is OG in the Winds, y'all don't even know lol

Glad you are still kicking dude. Fond NOLS in the 90s memories

I get that I can carry poop out, and horses can have bags over their poo holes too, and also pack it out.

Better yet, the horses can carry my poop out