You are responsible for your partner's knot: controversial?

Say, I wonder what belayers of those who majorly messed up or died due to the badly tied tie in knot think? Are they still climbing? Do they check their partner's knots?

In climbing, one of the most dangerous situations is where you think a safeguard is in place, you think and act like it's in place, then something happens that requires it to be in place, and you find out, very quickly and irreversibly, that it's not in place. Paradoxically, soloing is safer than this situation because the soloist knows there are no safeguards in place.

Anything climbers do to ensure that the things that are supposed to be in place are actually in place is worth doing, including checking your partner's knot and belay setup, as well as confirming they are belaying you and vice versa. The cost of checks like these are minimal, while the potential benefits are huge. Climbers with a more individualistic mindset should reconsider their objections to this approach. Yes, ultimately the climber is responsible for tying in properly but there is no possible objection to a different set of eyes reviewing the system.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Same. Perhaps John felt attacked - not that I recall anyone doing so.

I said I felt "surprised."  I don't feel attacked.  Not in the least.

I didn't move any goalposts!  My original question still stands.  If you say, "well, I only climb with experienced people" then fine, the beginners/kids/clients thing doesn't apply.

And finally, there is no "right" answer.  Do whatever you want.  Drop your break hand and drink a beer.  I truly don't care.  I just won't tie in with you.. it's not personal it's just a different mind-set and I climb with people who are a better fit for mine.  

Sorry I got y'all all emotional.  Carry on!

/unsubscribe (but not locked cuz that's lame)

Yes, your belayer does share responsibility for your safety through the rope system. Your knot is the first step in that rope system, it closes it off securely. And yes, many climbers are lazy and skip/forget this step. Yes, many climbers do dodge blame at every corner, maybe it’s because they can’t face their own guilt, so it turns to blame. I think it’s just emotional laziness, common in humanity.

John RBwrote:

I said I felt "surprised."  I don't feel attacked.  Not in the least.

Glad to have that affirmed, John!

JohnRB, you did indeed 'move the goal post'. In your original post you only mentioned checking your partner's knot--as per the thread title, but that later morphed into checking your "partner's set up (including gear, harness buckles, knot, belay devices)". That is where I believe you are asking for too much. Do you feel that we are "obliged" to interrogate our partners about the age of the ropes, harnesses. QDS, how many falls they have taken, what environments they have been exposed to, how many and what type of falls have they caught---all potentially relevant, I understand, all contributing to accidents over the years? I fully agree that we should be vigilant, and if we see something we don't like--obvious wear on a rope, for example, we should enquirer further---and potentially decide not to proceed with the climb if we don't like what we learn or observe, but I still think that you are expecting too much for normal climbing situations ( always excepting newbies, of course). 

Becca , that exact same statement can easily be flipped to the climber not tying their knot correctly refusing to acknowledge that it was their own mistake and passing the blame off on their partner who did not catch their mistake.  Exception would be for a client or student.  Partner checks are great but  blaming your partner for not catching YOUR mistake is Lame.  If a partner is chatting you up endlessly while you are trying to do serious stuff like tie in, belay or climb then yes they do share blame.  If however you do not specifically ask your partner to physically inspect your knot then passing any kind of blame on to them is beyond weak.  We all share responsibility for looking out for each other and helping the whole team come home safe at the end of the day but playing the blame game is lame. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Becca , that exact same statement can easily be flipped to the climber not tying their knot correctly refusing to acknowledge….

Nick, agreed, it's a shared blame scenario. Not sure why you took my viewpoint differently, bad faith argument there. No one is above reproach.

There is zero shared blame if you did not specifically ask the partner to check your knot unless you are a client, student or minor. I generally look  but don't get in your space. a quick glance might miss something?  I don't know if you looked at mine? but that's no biggie because I am responsible for me. I will not blame You if I screw up my tie in.  If you ask for a check I will do a real check and pull up my shirt and show you mine. No problem there at all.   If you are a team that's been climbing together for 27 years you might not even remember to look. If you want shared blame on your tie in knot you have to ask for it. I rarely climb with different partners but when I do I don't question the old salts who tie in with weird systems. they made it through 50 years of climbing it is probably good even if I have no clue how to tie that knott.  A younger new partner I will check. A minor or someone I am teaching to climb I will physically inspect.   I have pissed off a few people by doing a yank check on the gri gri which I feel is about 100% more likely to be threaded bas akwards than a tie in knot is to be in failure mode.  I am chicken to do the yank test now after getting yelled at a few times. Now I ask the belayer to do the yank test themselves. the last time I tried that I got a little attitude. like of course its threaded right.   None of this shit is as black and white as well all make it on the internet. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I have pissed off a few people by doing a yank check on the gri gri….

Sometimes people do the yank test without telling their partner. So they might give a look because getting a sudden jerk from your pelvis is jarring. Are you telling them before you do it so they're not startled?

I was taught to always check your partner before one leaves the ground, check the knot + check the belay device. I've taken a few AMGA courses, they teach this too... The climber should always ask, and the belayer should always ask/check. It doesn't matter who initiates.

I was taught the belayer is "head of the ship" in a way. They are the main one in charge of the rope system. But 100%, all parties should check every time. Mistakes happen, people get sidetrack, distracted, etc. It's okay if a mistake happens. We're not robots. Just try to assess correctly and fairly to do better in the future. I don't really care how evenly "split" the shared blame is, it is shared blame on the climber and belayer to check. It's a partnership, that's an agreement to try your best to do your activity safely to the best of your ability.

- [EDIT] My b, I forgot. When you get to a certain level, the climbing gods grant you telepathy. Safety checks are for gumbies. /s

And AMGA sets the climbing industry standards. They're not a group for newbs. I wasn't on a guided trip, they were AMGA certification courses to teach me to teach industry standards. Lolwut. [/EDIT] -

AMGA context is a group setting with usually less experienced folk. So not apples <> apples.
edit for the above human: the AMGA teaches people to be instructors, I was talking about the clients AMGA certed people deal with. To boot, they sure as heck do not set the industry standard. It a standard, and one that takes time to catch up as things evolve. The SPI from 15 years ago is not the same as today, as an example. Many of the teachings from the AMGA are dated, as is expected as you can't change your course material overnight with this kinda thing, nor would it be useful to do so. They teach incredibly valuable set of skills, but I could not call it cutting edge. This all to say , I love and support the AMGA.

I support buddy checks. I also climb with folks who I do not worry about checking, even though somtimes we do. (I find myself always looking at someones knot no matter what is said though)
If a partner wants that kinda detail, no problem, I know that and we check everytime. I always do it with beginners/students, but they cant always check me depending on the scenario.

As a senior climber, I would like to avoid my last senior moment and thus check everything every time we get ready to leave the ground, hope my partners do the same for me. I take responsibility for my self and do my best to help my partners. 

Some of us learned to climb before the AMGA existed so forgive us if we don't have the exact same protocols as AMGA. Yanking a gri gri hard enough to let it catch doesn't hurt your pelvis unless you are a pro soccer player.... Or a modern sport ju jitsu wimp. It feels intrusive and bruises your ego. I was taught that move by a sport climber and quickly learned that it pisses people off. Now I ask them to yank it themselves and that pisses them off. I feel this whole thread is about the wrong buddy check and should be about gri gri checks. Despite roped climbing being around at least a hundred years before gri gri was invented more people have been mangled by backwards threaded gri gris than blown tie in knots.  I want to see that thing lock up before I start leading. The eye roll doesn't give me any confidence in your belay. 

Leave it to MP to make a simple friendly buddy check into a fist fight.

mountainhickwrote:

Leave it to MP to make a simple friendly buddy check into a fist fight.

Becca Joy Steinbrecherwrote:

Nick, agreed, it's a shared blame scenario. Not sure why you took my viewpoint differently, bad faith argument there. No one is above reproach.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you Becca.  At least outside of guiding.  

There is no shared blame.  Double checking  someone’s knot / locked biner / buckle  is just that, a double check.

The person tying the knot, attaching the biner, or putting on the harness has responsibility to do it correctly. They have all the blame if it’s done wrong.

Put it this way, let’s say you tied your double bowline in wrong and as such you were hurt and needed hospitalization.   Your partner double checked your knot but missed your error. Would you ask or expect your partner to help pay for medical bills resulting from injury?  

Chad Millerwrote:

The person tying the knot, attaching the biner, or putting on the harness has responsibility to do it correctly. They have all the blame if it’s done wrong.

Interesting outlook, but I totally agree -

If the climber fucks up his knot, falls and dies, it is totally his fault. Belayer goes home, has  a stiff drink, says "He died doing what he loved".
If the belayer fucks up this belay, climber dies, it is belayer's fault. Belayer goes home, has a stiff drink, says "He died doing what he loved".

Conclusion - belaying is awesome, you don't die, can have a stiff drink afterward and spew platitudes

It’s interesting to consider the point at which threads go from useful to useless.

apogeewrote:

It’s interesting to consider the point at which threads go from useful to useless.

I hope the irony of your comment is not lost on you.

The question of whether or not partner checks should be done is totally separate from the question of responsibility. I make a habit of doing checks and taking them seriously, and I ask that my partners do the same, but I would never put any blame on a belayer if I didn't tie in correctly and had an accident. That would mean I failed to tie in correctly, I failed to check my own knot, and I failed to notice that they didn't check. That would be so many errors on my end that it would feel absurd to cast blame anywhere else. I don't think that's a small semantic point nor is it strictly legalese. Responsibility and blame go hand-in-hand. If you are responsible for something, you are also responsible for the consequences. At the end of the day, I take full responsibility for my knot even though I expect partners to check it. Obviously that's totally different if I am taking out a friend who is new to climbing and expecting me to keep them safe, in which case I would be responsible for their knot.