You are responsible for your partner's knot: controversial?

june mwrote:

In over 30 years of climbing, I have never seen anybody tie in incorrectly, except for  total beginners who didn't know how to tie their  knot yet. However, I had seen multiple people failed to put themselves on rappel properly, including myself. Obviously, when I checked the situation, I caught it and I'm here to talk about it.

I've tied in incorrectly. I got distracted whilst tying a figure-of-eight and did not completely rethread the knot. A one-third rethread is quite strong enough to tow the rope and doesn't come undone when you clip with it. I climbed past the crux (a letter grade below my limit at the time) without testing whether it takes a fall. I noticed my mistake shortly after. I'd been climbing for 28 years at the time. 

Since then I have a set routine: finish tying the knot before starting to put shoes on, a mnemonic "KGB" (Knot, Grigri, 'Biner. Works for people old enough to remember the USSR), and I do a buddy-check. This generally encourages people to buddy-check me. 

june mwrote:

In over 30 years of climbing, I have never seen anybody tie in incorrectly, except for  total beginners who didn't know how to tie their  knot yet.

I personally know off two experienced climbers who died due to incorrectly tied tie in knot.

june mwrote:

In over 30 years of climbing, I have never seen anybody tie in incorrectly, except for  total beginners who didn't know how to tie their  knot yet. However, I had seen multiple people failed to put themselves on rappel properly, including myself. Obviously, when I checked the situation, I caught it and I'm here to talk about it.

The most common sport climbing accident is getting lowered off the end of your rope. Which can be prevented with a knot in the end of the rope.

A friend of mine didn't finish tying her 8 and took a lead fall on it. I was surprised that it held.

Now I try to check my partner's knot, or ask them to verify it every time and make it a habit to show my partner my knot when I start climbing. I still dont think it's my responsibility to do so and I assume no one is going to check me when I tie in. I honestly dont think partner checks catch many of these errors because the root cause is usually climber and belayer chatting and distracting each other while tying in.

Okay. Found the account of Hill's fall in Climbing Free. It's the 1st chapter. She was distracted in conversation on the ground, failed to tie knot. Rope was apparently threaded through one piece of webbing on the harness and obscured by her jacket. Rope stayed put for entire ascent. She (EDIT: topped out), called for a take but her belayer was distracted. Leaned back and free-fell.

While Hill lays no blame outside of herself, this reminds me of another rule that I try to follow: don't chat someone up while they're tying in. 

EDIT: Thanks Marc. Climbing Free leaves some details out, which makes sense because it was written for the general public.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I agree with you 100 percent yet in real life it's hard to get the nerve up to question a legend. Certainly Brad Gobrite,s death was the direct result of his partner being intimidated by the pro climber status.. 

“Indirect,” right?  Rappelling is a solo act.  Rappelling off the end of a rope is not caused by the inaction a second person.

Logan Petersonwrote:

Okay. Found the account of Hill's fall in Climbing Free. It's the 1st chapter. She was distracted in conversation on the ground, failed to tie knot. Rope was apparently threaded through one piece of webbing on the harness and obscured by her jacket. Rope stayed put for entire ascent. She clipped anchors, called for a take but her belayer was distracted. Leaned back and free-fell.

Couple of days ago I posted this. You probably didn't see it:

Lynn's account starts at 13:30 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE9_oAPRTsE&ab_channel=HannahMorrisBouldering

Live Perchedwrote:

“Indirect,” right?  Rappelling is a solo act.  Rappelling off the end of a rope is not caused by the inaction a second person.

Not solo in that case. They were simul-rapping.

Don’t know enough about the Gobright case to say whether the “halo effect” contributed.

Marc801 C wrote:

Couple of days ago I posted this.

I appreciated that post. Great down-to-earth interview from someone who stands tall in our shared history.

The less experienced climber said we are not at the middle of the rope. Brad said it doesn't matter and something to the effect of we are in a hurry or trying to make time. 

Not sure why I used the thou shalt not be thy brothers keeper line as it really doesn't apply to climbing. I do however feel that we are all responsible for tieing our own knot and under no circumstances is it appropriate to blame someone else if we screw it up.  The partner check is fine but it starts with our own ability to tie in properly. I do think not enough emphasis is placed on not distracting belayers and people that are tying in. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Not sure why I used the thou shalt not be thy brothers keeper line as it really doesn't apply to climbing. I do however feel that we are all responsible for tieing our own knot and under no circumstances is it appropriate to blame someone else if we screw it up.  The partner check is fine but it starts with our own ability to tie in properly. I do think not enough emphasis is placed on not distracting belayers and people that are tying in. 

While I'm not as diligent about partner-checking knots as I should be, especially with frequent and experienced partners, I do pretty consistently try to interject and stop 'distractions', especially when folks are tying in, setting-up rappels, or similar 'focus necessary' activities.

Devin Pendaswrote:

Really? Here are a couple of quotes of people in this forum saying exactly what you claim they don't say: 

"The trend of shifting one's personal responsibility towards others is truly disturbing."

 "My knot is my responsibility and mine alone."

 "thou shalt not be thy brothers keeper."

 "I never do partner checks for the tie-in knot." 

Whatever sins I may be guilty of, mischaracterizing the tenor of some of the comments in this thread is not one of them. 

I agree with the above listed quotes (except perhaps the last one), as I’ve always just done partner checks out of habit since day one, but I don’t see any of them as incongruous with good checks and partnership.  

My read of this thread (and my experience in the wild for 37 years) is that everyone is roughly 98% aligned and any argument is merely due to subtleties of emphasis or misunderstanding of meaning/intent.   There really is no argument here other than to make one.  You probably wouldn’t get 100% agreement on 2+2=4

What goes for climbing, goes for technical scuba, whitewater, parachuting/BASE jumping, motorcycling, etc….they are generally done in partnership with others, and others try to have your back and support you, but ultimately your life is in your hands alone and it is up to you and only you to have your shit wired tight and foolproof (as much as humanly possible).  But we are humans, and sometimes shit just happens and even the best NHL goalie lets one trickle in thru the 5 hole.  

No argument or procedure will change that 

Devin Pendaswrote:

 "I never do partner checks for the tie-in knot." 

Since I am the person you are quoting, let me expand on it.  This has to do with the language of the original query, the phrase "responsible for" that rgold and others have said is the behind most of the back and forth arguments. And it has to do with something else.

"Partner" has a specific meaning to me.  A partner is not just the person I happen to be roping up with for the route or for the day.  If it's a beginner or inexperienced person, and I'm climbing with them, they are not a partner.  I take 100% responsibility for their safety, because I have no knowledge of whether they have the competence to do that for themselves. With these people, yes I am responsible, morally, for their knot. And for checking and assessing dozens of other things. 

My partners, the people I call by the term "partner" have, like me, decades of experience, and we both trust each other to do the dozens of things we expect from the other person. It doesn't mean we are not looking at what the other person is doing, or ignoring them as they are prepping. I watch them with my full attention just as they watch me with the same attention. That is part of the routine of climbing and of being a partner.  Do I say "show me your knot", or "let me check your knot"? That is my understanding of what people mean by "doing a partner check". And no, I don't say those words because I was watching them prep and I am watching them before they leave the ground. 

My husband doesn't read Mountain Project.  He's been climbing since 1970.  I said to him, respond to this statement: "You are responsible for your partner's knot". He have me this look -

And then said, "absolutely not, but of course when I was guiding or with beginners, I was 100% responsible".  So a lot of this is semantics.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

The less experienced climber said we are not at the middle of the rope. Brad said it doesn't matter and something to the effect of we are in a hurry or trying to make time. 

Forgot they were simultaneously rappelling.  Thank you.  I did not know about the pre-rappelling . RIP. I won’t say more.

I used "responsible" in the thread title, but that seems to have triggered a lot of people (several invoking some kind of legal definition).  But I did want to ask the question in a way that asks you folks if you felt you were as much obliged to check your partner's set up (including gear, harness buckles, knot, belay device) as your own.  I was very surprised by the answers here which were mostly "I'm solely responsible for my own stuff, and you for yours, period."

At a minimum I expected people to make exceptions for beginners or kids, taking some responsibility for their safety in those cases, but few did.

Anyway, interesting... it's why I don't doing casual belaytionship hookups even at the gym.

John RBwrote:

I used "responsible" in the thread title, but that seems to have triggered a lot of people (several invoking some kind of legal definition).  But I did want to ask the question in a way that asks you folks if you felt you were as much obliged to check your partner's set up (including gear, harness buckles, knot, belay device) as your own.  I was very surprised by the answers here which were mostly "I'm solely responsible for my own stuff, and you for yours, period."

At a minimum I expected people to make exceptions for beginners or kids, taking some responsibility for their safety in those cases, but few did.

Anyway, interesting... it's why I don't doing casual belaytionship hookups even at the gym.

Cool story. 

John RBwrote:

  I was very surprised by the answers here which were mostly "I'm solely responsible for my own stuff, and you for yours, period."

I don't think even a single person said that.

At a minimum I expected people to make exceptions for beginners or kids, taking some responsibility for their safety in those cases, but few did.

I thought it was a question, not a test with predetermined right answers with a requirement to read your mind. The question didn't invoke guiding considerations.  I'm pretty sure that everyone thinks it right to take responsibility for beginners. Stop catastrophizing.

Well now the OP is completely full of shit trump style. Almost everyone said that they are fully responsible for beginners.

Same. Perhaps John felt attacked - not that I recall anyone doing so.

It has been an interesting thread, hearing how people treat the extremes, beginners to “partners” a la phylp phylp. I can imagine a couple of early intermediates assuming a stance  of strict joint responsibility.  And maybe that can work for single pitch? And the introduction of “it depends” begins at multi-pitch? Not my point of view. And not being patronizing.  Trying to imagine.

John RBwrote:

I used "responsible" in the thread title, but that seems to have triggered a lot of people (several invoking some kind of legal definition).  But I did want to ask the question in a way that asks you folks if you felt you were as much obliged to check your partner's set up (including gear, harness buckles, knot, belay device) as your own.  I was very surprised by the answers here which were mostly "I'm solely responsible for my own stuff, and you for yours, period."

At a minimum I expected people to make exceptions for beginners or kids, taking some responsibility for their safety in those cases, but few did.

Anyway, interesting... it's why I don't doing casual belaytionship hookups even at the gym.

John, you've moved the goal posts from your original post---which was focused on checking a partners tie-in knot.

First, despite your comment above, many who responded did distinguish between inexperienced and experienced partners in this regard and, I'm pretty sure that most ( all) of those who didn't do so specifically just assumed that it was obvious ( probably because they almost always climb with experienced partners).

While I agree that partner checks, especially of knots and rappel set-ups, are a very good habit ( though not sure of 'obligation'--see below), I don't agree that the 'full body checks' that you now describe, are ( nor need they be) 'routine' ( again excepting inexperienced, or possibly new, 'rope mates'). Obviously, one should always be attentive and alert, but such 'formal once overs' seem a bit 'too much' to me.

You also seem to shrug off those of us who referred to the possible legal ramifications of the word 'responsible'. However, it is a word that does carry substantial legal 'weight'. I would not be at all surprised if at some time in the future an attorney performing their 'due diligence' research would come across this thread and quote some of it as part of a lawsuit---such things happen.

Unless you have some legal/insurance issues, the word "responsible" is too normative to drive practical discussions. Your climbing partner's risk is also (partly) your risk: if they get injured, you are also in the risk of rescuing them (and yourself if it's multipitch terrain). Partner checking knot/harness/helmet/rappel setups is just a very lost cost way to mitigate these risks. I do that all the time with all my climbing partners without even thinking about if I'm "responsible" for them - I just don't wanna epic/die because of these small mistakes.