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You are responsible for your partner's knot: controversial?
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Nah. I’d rather my belayer be thinking of things like “Did I give Bill all the slings?” as I focus solely on tying my knot. ;) |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: Sorry! Just seeing this as I turned off the notifications on this thread. Nick, there is no analogy between climbing and working with "operators" downrange. None. Maybe if you were only climbing with IFMGA guides who've been IFMGA certified for at least 3 years but not more than 10 and continually guiding in high risk situations without breaks. I did 4 deployments with full-on Special Forces (3rd and 5th Group) as a full member of those units and it was only on the third one that they started taking me on direct action "hits" for on-site medical coverage inside the houses, etc. As a non-Long Tab'd guy, I was not accepted until I had ran and trained with them for years (and had completed some of their schools, esp. the "real" SERE school at JFK SWC). Doc's were not allowed to do the full Q course when I was with the units as it would take me out of doing "Doc" work for 18 months and it was not essential that I had a long tab to do my job. I tried to do the full Q but was turned down. Probably for the best as I wonder if I would have made it! The vetting system in that small community has no "real world" equivalent, nor honestly, have I ever seen a system of trust anywhere come close to the one in those units. Climbing is the only thing that comes close but it is dimensions less. I know that this sounds like a "brag" or something but it is not. I was never a Tab'd guy and was never anything close to an operator or "pipe hitter" but I was finally accepted and trusted by them after 3-4 years of working and running with them full time. |
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Sounds really intense. I do think that when you climb with folks like RG, Donnini etc its hard to keep your mindset in the leader mode and easy to defer to their judgement. |
Sep Mwrote: So which of the two is likely to be the safer partner? |
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We are all responsible for getting each other home safe every time however the one who makes the mistake should not blame the other person for not catching their mistake. |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: I just blame the internet for any mistakes I make. |
Chad Millerwrote: A GriGri is for Pfft? |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: RG and Doninni are octogenarians who grew up as climbers in a wild wild west of minimal-to-nonexistent safety protocols. Remember Survival Is Not Assured? My advice is to question every damn thing they say. |
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I agree with you 100 percent yet in real life it's hard to get the nerve up to question a legend. Certainly Brad Gobrite,s death was the direct result of his partner being intimidated by the pro climber status.. |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: Are we talking about the same RG? He's completely down-to-earth, and acts as a true mentor. That may be due to his academic background. He's very good at explaining what he's doing and pointing out little tips that have helped me grow as a climber. I know that if he ever did something that didn't make sense to me, he wouldn't be offended if I questioned it. I am a questioning type of person, and if that annoys a partner, they shouldn't climb with me. I started climbing by taking an AMC course. All the people in charge were extremely thorough in asking questions to make the students think about why we were doing things the way that they recommended. Once in a while, I come upon a "partner" who does sketch me out, seems offended when I ask a question, or minimizes dangerous behavior. I don't climb with them once that is clear. You won't always be able to detect this before you leave the ground, unfortunately. Nowadays, I declare up-front that I'm super careful with safety, and I hope that scares off the potential partners who aren't compatible. |
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Dragons, I think "RG" is being just a bit sarcastic here. After all he and Jim ( Donini)--and a few others on here--SURVIVED those 'wild wild west' years, so undoubtedly picked up a few tips to pass on' as a result. |
John RBwrote: This! So many folks in this thread are insisting that you are only responsible for your own shit. If something as simple as checking your partner's knot can save a person's life, why on earth would you not do it? It is not a question of blame, it is a question of mutual care. We look out for ourselves, sure, but we should also look out for each other. |
Devin Pendaswrote: Ah, the wonderfully polarizing effect of the human mind in Internet forums- everything is either A or B. There has been no such statement of such a strictly self-oriented view, yet it has boiled down to this overly simplified conclusion. |
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If someone can't be trusted to tie in correctly, how reliable is their belay going to be? Starting to lead before being put on belay isn't necessarily risky. Same with taking someone off before they are anchored. It's all situation awareness, knowing what is important now and in some upcoming period of time. That awareness trumps everything. And yes, that awareness of what's going on with the rope is part of it. And yes, things are different with less experienced people. I will trust them all, but keep a QUIET eye on some more than others. Being quiet can lead to less risk as much as anything. |
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In over 30 years of climbing, I have never seen anybody tie in incorrectly, except for total beginners who didn't know how to tie their knot yet. However, I had seen multiple people failed to put themselves on rappel properly, including myself. Obviously, when I checked the situation, I caught it and I'm here to talk about it. The most common sport climbing accident is getting lowered off the end of your rope. Which can be prevented with a knot in the end of the rope. |
apogeewrote: The most common cognitive trap. |
june mwrote: I've seen it once in which a figure-eight knot was begun but not finished. I think this is extremely rare, but as I said, I've seen it. I know of several cases in which the rope was threaded through the harness (or through a swami) but no knot was ever tied. Some well-known expert climbers have managed this. One such incident happened to me more than 50 years ago. I had passed the rope through my swami, and at that moment, my partner handed me the rack, which I put on and led off. When I was maybe 30 feet up, the rope ran over a little flake, and I asked the belayer to flip it. As soon as he did, the rope slipped off my swami and I was left marooned on the face with no rope. The pitch was 5.7 at a time when I was onsighting 5.11, so I comfortably soloed to the top and walked off. We never thought much about it afterwards. Obviously, some kind of partner check would have been a good thing here. I don't think I've heard anyone argue against partner checks. But the concept of "responsibility" (and so inevitably blame) was made the centerpiece of the question, and that raises questions which I think are a distraction from the perfectly ordinary idea that partners should embrace protocols that help keep the party safe. |
apogeewrote: Really? Here are a couple of quotes of people in this forum saying exactly what you claim they don't say: "The trend of shifting one's personal responsibility towards others is truly disturbing." "My knot is my responsibility and mine alone." "thou shalt not be thy brothers keeper." "I never do partner checks for the tie-in knot." Whatever sins I may be guilty of, mischaracterizing the tenor of some of the comments in this thread is not one of them. |
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Have you considered asking any of those people for more detail about their comment? |
WF WF51wrote: Depends how you use it. |
