You are responsible for your partner's knot: controversial?

Tom Rangitschwrote:

Well, if I was belaying someone and they decked due to an improperly tied knot, I would definitely feel like it was somewhat on me.  I don't know anyone who wouldn't.  I'm not trolling, just stating that part of belaying is making sure the system works, and the climber's knot is definitely part of that system.

If you saw something was wrong and didn’t say something- yes I would take responsibility.

If you saw something that didn’t look right , said something, and the person didn’t listen - I would take no responsibility however I’d do everything I could to help 

thou shalt not be thy brothers keeper.  I will look but not going to get nosy.  I expect myself to be responsible for my own shit. I often tell my partner in a stressful situation like storm coming or darkness approaching. Be Methodical! Check Everything.  so no its not my job to tie your knot but its nice if I did happen to catch something and it prevented an accident.   I don't like the laying blame on people shit. I do like to take care of each other but also expect us to take care of ourselves and no blame.  everyone do the best that you can and stop point fucking fingers.  

i can't help but wonder if this relates to a recent death in the climbing community

When you've re-tied your knot at an anchor countless times with nobody there to check it or spent hours on fixed lines developing or TR soloing alone you either learn the first time that that the knot is solely your responsibility or YGD.  Unless i'm climbing with someone new to climbing or otherwise has given off some red flag about their ability to tie a knot usually i'll only take a glance to see if anything is obviously screwed up but at the end of the day their knot is up to them.

Adam is correct. especially for those of us who do a lot of solo climbing we get used to  checking our own shit and are not used to checking other peoples shit because they are not there. When we climb with inexperienced people we know we need to check their shit and take care of them but when we climb with peers its not really on the radar.  BTW Lynn was distracted, did not finish her tie in. climbed the route and yelled take at the top. I am certain her partner feels responsible but in reality it could happen to any of us and anyone who has been climbing 40+ years and says that they check their partners knot every time is most likly kidding themselves for the sake of the discussion.  

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Adam is correct. especially for those of us who do a lot of solo climbing we get used to  checking our own shit and are not used to checking other peoples shit because they are not there. When we climb with inexperienced people we know we need to check their shit and take care of them but when we climb with peers its not really on the radar.  BTW Lynn was distracted, did not finish her tie in. climbed the route and yelled take at the top. I am certain her partner feels responsible but in reality it could happen to any of us and anyone who has been climbing 40+ years and says that they check their partners knot every time is most likly kidding themselves for the sake of the discussion.  

I TR solo a lot.  And one of the things that really bothers me is that I don't have another set of eyes to catch any mistakes I might make.   The same kind of situation occurs when you have a partner dicking around at an anchor (say she just TRed, no musseys, so has to thread an anchor or switch to rappel) and you can't see her.  How many deaths have occurred like this?  Quite a few.

Also, in my OP I was assuming your "partner" is a peer.  Obviously if it's a beginner or a child, etc., then you have a lot more responsibility.  But for myself... I check my partner's harness buckles, tie in, etc., before she blasts off on lead.  I will insist she check my harness buckles, my locker, and verify my device is correctly oriented.  I will also double check her draw count (for sport routes), assess problem areas (bad fall potential), decide where I'm standing to belay, do I need gloves or belay glasses, and do I need a knot in the end of the rope if the route is long-ish.

This is probably overboard for a sport where you can't 100% control all risk factors, but it's habit at this point.  So many people have been injured or killed as a result of simple mistakes born of a momentary lapse of attention.

Caitlin Twrote:

No, my partner is not responsible for my knot. 

If my partner fails to tie their knot properly or go through both loops and I don't notice, I will feel like I have done something wrong.  I should have seen that, I should be checking my partner's knot. 

We do climb with that habit for safety, as a back up.  And if I notice a particular partner is non-chalant about checking my knot, it's a bad sign to me, i don't want to climb with that type of inattentive person.

But, if something happens, or if I miss a loop on my harness, I would not blame it on my partner.  It's ultimately my responsibility and the partner check is a back-up for what I should already be doing myself.  Always in life you are responsible for your own actions. 

That being said, even if the responsibility is ultimately your own, I think the statement "you are always responsible for your partner's knot" is a good statement to teach new climbers.  It will imbue that feeling of responsibility and how important it is to have each other's backs, even if an accident would not really be their fault.  That feeling and awareness is what is important here.  Especially when it comes to tying in, because it quickly becomes so routine people don't think about what they are doing anymore. 

Usually posts from a brand new account are not worth paying attention to, so it's nice to see an exception from time to time. I agree with everything you said.

Same thinking applies when people get injured when they take a fall on rope. Unless the belayer made indisputable mistakes because they are blatantly careless and not paying attention, which, in my observation, happens more often in a social cragging scene where there are many distractions around and they don't have the awareness to block those out, every climber is reponsible for their own injury. 

I see a trend where an injured climber seeks validation that their injury could have been prevented if their belayer had given a softer catch or had less slack in the system etc, as if every injury would have been 100% preventable if the belayer did the right thing in that split second. I find it disturbing that they always get the validation they wanted regardless of circumstances -- it's they belayer's fault. The truth is any fall has inherent danger as a gazillian things could go wrong in the most unexpected manner, and hindsight is 20/20. It's the climber's responsibility to communicate clearly how they expect to be belayed if they have not established a long term belaytionship. As long as the belayer is paying attention and reacting in their best effort, an injury is just the unfortunate consequence of the fall and should be accepted as such. Blaming is lame. 

That said, my partner would probably agree that I give belaying more thoughts than almost anyone else. I hold that personal responsibility to everyone who trusts me enough to tie in with me, but we are all human -- we can get forgetful or distracted, and we may not always make the best split second judgement. I really want to check my partner's knot everytime, but I have forgotten to do so many times too. I even forgot to check my own knot sometimes. While I know my partner has the same intention, I'd definitely not hold them responsible if they happen to forget. That's all.

What does "responsibility" mean in this context?  What are the consequences of a failure of "responsibility?"  Does the term actually mean anything?

I can't wait for someone to sue their beayer for failing to notice an improper or entirely absent tie-in knot.

I think the climber has primary responsibility (whatever it is supposed to mean) for their actions.  If you didn't tie your knot right and your belayer missed your mistake, it's still all on you.  That said, the belayer has both a moral and a very practical interest in making sure the party is safe, so vigilance is certainly appropriate.  And even highly experienced and. competent people can make egregious errors, especially in distracting environments, so a second pair of eyes is a good thing.  So sure, double-check things, but don't offload "responsibility" for failures onto anyone but the person who messed up.

A further issue: my sense from what I've read (and a bit from what I've seen) is that distraction plays an important role in various safety oversights.  If we are going to dish out responsibilities, maybe the belayer and those around a leader about to start should make an effort to minimize distractions.  Shut up for a few moments while the leader is tying in, for example, and certainly don't hand them something while they are getting themselves attached.

rgoldwrote:

What does "responsibility" mean in this context?  What are the consequences of a failure of "responsibility?"  Does the term actually mean anything?

Are you "responsible" for catching your partner if she falls?  Do we need to dissect the word "responsible" in order to answer that question?

I can't wait for someone to sue their beayer for failing to notice an improper or entirely absent tie-in knot.

The courts are a poor instrument for deciding social norms and duties to one another.  Bad take.

John RBwrote:

Are you "responsible" for catching your partner if she falls?  Do we need to dissect the word "responsible" in order to answer that question?

The courts are a poor instrument for deciding social norms and duties to one another.  Bad take.

How do we answer a question about a term whose meaning is not understood? And.the second comment was a joke (with a purpose)..

Your responsibility correlates strongly to your position relative to the fall line 

I never do partner checks for the tie-in knot and most of my partners don't do them with me.  It just always seemed to me like one of those personal things in the list of stuff you do, that's part of your job, before you leave the ground. I just did a trip where I had a new partner ask to check my knot before I left the ground on every climb and I have to admit I found it surprising. It's probably a good thing to do.  It certainly can't hurt and can certainly help. Maybe new climbers should all be trained that way. But am I gonna start doing it now?  Nah...

It's a good practice to check your partner's knot.  Period.

Well, for me, this thread is a great way to tell who I would like to tie into a rope with and who I would not.

I will always insist on checking my partners knot every time and I insist that they check mine.

If they have a problem with that, that's a deal breaker for me.

But I'm not God's gift to anything so perhaps they are the ones dodging a bullet if they end up not climbing with me?

And I agree with what I think that Rich is saying, "responsibility" is an odd way to phrase it.

I tie in with a tucked Yosemtie Bowline. (This is credited to Alan Lee but I prefer the name describing what it is.)  

Most climbers nowadays can't check it in any reliable way.  I usually get one of three responses.

1. "You sure that knot's ok?"

2. < Shrug >

3. "Looks good."

The third response is interesting; the person making it has taken a cursory glance and thinks they've verified a figure-eight even though it isn't that. (I guess they could be taken quite literally too, as the knot is--ahem--very attractive.) This type of confirmation bias can be very dangerous.  In any case, I know that most people (except for a few old farts like me) cannot check the knot so I better make sure it's right myself. So I use a "pointing and calling" approach common in Asian railroads (originally Japan), which has been found to reduce accident rates by as much as 85%.  This is not a partner-checking protocol; it is something the primary operator does by themselves, pointing to critical things and calling out their status (I do it sub voce).  You can do it with knots, anchors, rappel setups, etc.  It is a form of structured self-talk that seems to promote focus and decrease distraction.

My sense about many (but not all) tie-in accidents is not that a knot was mistied but that there was no knot at all.  That's perhaps the main thing to look out for: has the climber actually tied in?

Here's another thing.  We've found over the years that it helps rope handling if the second doesn't tie in on the first pitch until the leader has just about pulled the ropes up.  This way, all the lurking twists come out.  But then the second is all by themselves with no one to check their tie-in.

rgoldwrote:My sense about many (but not all) tie-in accidents is not that a knot was mistied but that there was no knot at all.  That's perhaps the main thing to look out for: has the climber actually tied in?

It’s the knot through a single tie in loop for me — I’ve caught an infrequent partner’s miss before she left ground twice over the years via my partner check. But only a week ago, I did it myself only realizing it when it felt uncomfortable while I was being lowered. I did show that to my partner afterwards sheepishly, but the mistake was 100% on me. 

Ackley The Improvedwrote:

I use a double bowline when dogging. Youngsters can’t/won’t learn it.

Me too! Glad im not the only one. This knot is great! Ill gladly whip on it all day long

But don’t know why my partner would be responsible for this??

I think this is one that virtue ethics solves for us. Imagine two identical climbing partners. One believes they are responsible for your knot, the other does not. Which is the safer, and thus better, partner? That is the partner we should strive to be.

Also, what is this nonsense about responsibility as a limited resource? Two people can each be 100% responsible for the same thing. That’s what redundancy means.

Sep Mwrote:

Two people can each be 100% responsible for the same thing. That’s what redundancy means.

Can't believe I had to scroll this far too see this.

The person tying the knot is responsible for it.  A ”responsible” (conscientious and reliable) partner will check it if able.