Destroyed QD on sport route without falling on it

So here's a somewhat vexing one. A few weeks ago, a few of us were working on a tall-ish sport line with a low crux. Many falls were taken - all on lead - low down on the route, in the overhanging section. about 6 bolts up, on the much easier, vertical, non-wandering, face climbing, one of the quickdraws looked like this, noticed when cleaning the route on the way down at the end of the day:

The gate was almost impossible to open to even get the draw off the wall.

Obvious ways this can happen would seem:

- the biner was cammed on the bolt and someone fell on it (this never happened, there were 100% no falls on this, or any higher piece)

- the biner was hit by a falling rock (we were sitting here all day with multiple people, we would almost certainly have noticed something falling)

- lowering forces with this cammed in some odd way were somehow enough to cause this amount of damage - seems highly unlikely

- ???

For reference, the route, climber at crux, about 50' below where this draw was:

Thoughts?

That's bizarre. Might that bolt be directly above a protruding cobble, such that upper biner is held out from wall? In that case, I'd still imagine a whip would be necessary for that sort of deformation.

Do you have a photo of the bolt? Seems like maybe it got levered weirdly over an unusual feature?

Max Tepfer wrote:

Do you have a photo of the bolt? Seems like maybe it got levered weirdly over an unusual feature?

I don't sadly. I wasn't the one cleaning, but my buddy hanging there said there was no obvious way to cam this thing either over a rotated bolt hangar or cobble.
The weird part to me is that that seems like the only way this could happen, but it would HAVE to happen with a lead fall I would think - which didn't happen.

I do not think there is any way to cause such damage with just hanging/lowering forces

From what I'm gathering, you were top roping with the draws clipped above and repeatedly whipping below? My guess is the the draw was in a high or low spot (angle wise to the terrain above and below) and got pinned or pulled against the wall or the hanger/bolt. 

You may want to retire that 'biner before next season   

saign charlestein wrote:

From what I'm gathering, you were top roping with the draws clipped above and repeatedly whipping below? My guess is the the draw was in a high or low spot (angle wise to the terrain above and below) and got pinned or pulled against the wall or the hanger/bolt. 

No. we only led. this draw was never weighted, only slightly pulled to the side when lowering after lead.

Daniel Campbell wrote:

No. we only led. this draw was never weighted, only slightly pulled to the side when lowering after lead.

Then I would imagine it got pulled tight by the weight on the rope and was somehow wedged in between the hanger and the bolt. That's kinda all that makes sense. But that's just pure speculation

Definitely a weird one. Petzl America is based out of West valley if you wanted to contact them. I'm sure there was some weird camming action or leverage on the draw but definitely worrisome. 

I'm surprised with that amount of bend the carabiner didn't break

That's crazy. Seems like a failure on the part of the manufacturer. I would think Petzl would be interested to see this- a carbineer shouldn't warp like that without huge forces at play- more than a person's weight lowering on a dynamic rope could ever generate. 

How about sending the carabiner to the How Not to guys for testing. Maybe a manufacturers defect.

You can see the dent near the top of the spine that screams "jammed in the hanger".

I would hold open the possibility that this draw did in fact hold a fall. You say 100% no, but the reality is that human memory is fallible.

I’m not sure a forgotten fall is less likely than the weird physics that would be needed to explain how an unweighted carabiner got bent like that. 

Gunkiemike wrote:

You can see the dent near the top of the spine that screams "jammed in the hanger".

I agree. I'd bet $20 there's a bolt on that route that sticks out more than 1/2" from the nut on the hanger. It's always spooky to look down and notice one of your quickdraws already caught up on some hanger, just waiting for this kind of thing to happen!

James - wrote:

I would hold open the possibility that this draw did in fact hold a fall. You say 100% no, but the reality is that human memory is fallible.

I’m not sure a forgotten fall is less likely than the weird physics that would be needed to explain how an unweighted carabiner got bent like that. 

I agree fully. None of the 4 of us remember anyone falling there, and for reference, it's about 2 full number grades easier there than the crux. That being said, a fall plus a cammed biner over the hangar is really the only way i can see this happening.
I don't expect an answer to how it happened, just thought it was interesting and a little spooky.

Could someone have stepped on the bolt side biner while it was levered over a hanger?

Jay DePun wrote:

Could someone have stepped on the bolt side biner while it was levered over a hanger?

Yeah potentially? Though i'd still think that should not be enough force to do that amount of damage. This is my mostly likely culprit I think.

one of your buddies lied about getting it clean. they stepped on the bolt and the biner was jammed between bolt and hanger? I suspect lowering forces on sideways  loaded draws are perhaps more than we think so option#2 is biner stuck between bolt and hanger while tourqued to side lowering? 

It's Maple, almost certainly there is a protruding portion just below the bolt that created a point of leverage.  Saying this is a manufacturing defect without looking at the bolt location is unreasonable.  Most likely, the bolt was either placed in an anti-cobble or there is a cobble just below the bolt. 

I had seen something similar happen once, but the fall was involved. 

You can see the scar/gauged-spot on the top of the binder in your photo, that screams that it was caught on something, probably a hanger.

I can’t imagine this much deformation happening without a fall. Maybe you guys don’t remember the fall, because it was in the unremarkable non- crux spot?

I would send it to the manufacturer, for sure, to rule out some kind of manufacturing defect, but my guess is that, barring a defect, you won’t get an answer more definitive than what you already got on this thread. 

A0 failure (one of your leaders is a bit if of a berserker and a terrible liar). my guess is bolt six is protecting the crux move